If it's biblical it's true, yes?

[JohnD]

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Physical Jew / Spirit Jew

 

 

Romans 9:1-6 (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

Physical Jew chosen but not saved

Spiriit Jew saved and elect

 

So which of the two do you suppose Gentile Believers in Jesus are grafted into?

 

Romans 11:16-26 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[Guest shiloh357]

Gentile Christians are not grafted into either one.  The Church is grafted into Israel.   You grab verse in one part of Romans that deal with Jews and Gentiles and their standing before God and their access to God's grace.

 

Romans 9-11 is dealing with the corporate church's relationship to Israel.   Paul, in those chapters is not talking Gentiles being grafted into Jews.  He is talking about the Church's participation in the community of the commonwealth of Israel.   Nowhere are Gentiles grafted into Jews.

 

"Spirit Jew" is not a biblical concept.  You made that term up.   I guess if you want to be biblical, you should stop making up terms and imposing them on the Bible.

[JohnD]

Okay. The Church is grafted into Israel. Which one? Physical or Spirit?

[JohnD]

Or do you suppose physical Jews are saved at birth?

[JohnD]

Gentile Christians are not grafted into either one.  The Church is grafted into Israel.   You grab verse in one part of Romans that deal with Jews and Gentiles and their standing before God and their access to God's grace.

 

Romans 9-11 is dealing with the corporate church's relationship to Israel.   Paul, in those chapters is not talking Gentiles being grafted into Jews.  He is talking about the Church's participation in the community of the commonwealth of Israel.   Nowhere are Gentiles grafted into Jews.

 

"Spirit Jew" is not a biblical concept.  You made that term up.   I guess if you want to be biblical, you should stop making up terms and imposing them on the Bible.

 

No matter how you try to spin it, Shiloh, when you encapsulate Gentiloe believers into "the Church" and then the "Church" is grafted into Israel... youmake Gentiles lesser believers than Jewish believers.

 

Your own bible militates against that interpolation!

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am not spinning anything, John DB;  you misunderstand because you are unskilled in the Word of God.    Grafting in does not make the Gentiles lesser believers.  That's just ridiculous.  In fact, Paul takes great pains to point out that Gentiles and Jews are stand equally before God as sinners and equal participants in redemption and have equal access to God's grace.  But Paul said that the Church is grafted into Israel, like it or not.  You are not disagreeing with me.  You are disagreeing with the Scriptures.

 

You make up terms like "spirit Jew"  and then try to pretend you are being "biblical."  

[Qnts2]

Johndb, how many time are you going to post the exact same thing? Over and over and over, the same thing.

 

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it true.

 

Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

It does not say the Gentiles are Israel/Jews. It says not all of Israel/Jews, are saved. Not all Jews will inherit the promise of the Messiah.

 

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 

 

Notice, Israel is blinded, until all of the Gentiles who will be saved are saved. After the fulness of the Gentiles come in, the deliverer (Messiah Jesus) will come out of Zion, and all of Israel (Jews living at that time), will be saved. It does not say that Gentiles are Israel. As a matter of clear understanding, it is explaining to the Gentiles the differences between Gentiles and Israel/Jews, and that God will fulfill His promise to Israel. It also says, Gentiles should not boast against Israel/Jews.

 

Shiloh has explained to you that you are reading your own understanding into scripture and not what scripture actually says. I have explained the same thing. Others have explained the same thing. No where in scripture does it say that Gentiles become Jews, spirtual or physical.     

[Will M]

Hi,

 

I am a bit confused, maybe you can help me.

 

I thought Romans was being addressed to the saints?

In the passage of Romans it definitely does say we are circumcised of the heart, we are grafted in but we are grafted in to the Lord, who is a jew.

So how can we not be jews? 

I know this is a dispute over the law but it clearly does say we gentiles do becomes jews and I have always believed that. I do not practice Jewish customs but I still identify with them because Jesus is the King of the Jews. 

Can you please tell me how this is wrong because even when I read your responses so far it seems confusing what you are saying. 

Thanks a lot

-Will

[hmbld]

Hi Will, I don't have your answer as I have never believed I became a Jew by believing in Jesus. But, I am interested in understanding this further, so I was hoping someone would answer you and include a strict definition of who is a Jew?  Thanks.  

[Will M]

Thanks hmbld. I really would hate to think I have believed wrong but I sure don't want to so I ask

-Will