If salvation is the gift of God..

[Guest wilburnh]

"whoever believes HAS eternal life.." is in the aortic tense. All scriptures that refer to 'salvation to the end' as this one does are written in the aortic along with hebrews 6:4-6 and a few others. The work 'believes' here is in the aortic. As has been stated before, the word in question must be true in the present for the entitlement to hold true. Do a little research on these verses (almost positive that it is the aortic) and then do a study on the tense.

I think that osas individuals limit God just as cond. sec. are said to do. I was reading on an individuals' website that he has more ability to show the grace of God through osas vs cond. sec. I just kept thinking to myself, I have a better ability to show His 'grace' by believe that He died for all... so everyone is saved. My point is that supposedly 'limiting' God is not always a bad thing. We limit him by saying He is always faithful. So I guess that I dislike the term being used, because automatically a reader feels that the belief under the knife is wrong because it is limiting God.

Anyway, lets move on. I disagree with you saying that there is no such thing as free will (well maybe you think I have a different view). In 1 Corinthians ten it talks about temptations and other subjects. If you notice verse thirteen, it says that God gives us a way out of all temptation. Now at a glance this does not seem to show free will, but at a closer look, you see that it does in a very real way. Has every Christian (myself included) from the resurrection of Christ avoided temptation every time it presented itself? But the osas individual will say that man is fallible and so it is impossible to shoot for this. But they fail to see in scripture that if one is to live without sin, it is not to the credit of the individual so we do not have the contradictory 'multiple perfect individuals'. Christ provides the way out, I really don't know how to explain it any different. Various places throughout scripture Christians are warned not to err, james 1:14-17 (16 specific). These verses combined with 1 Corinthians add up to a christian being called not to sin.

On a side note, sorry for the 'leave of absence'. It's just everytime I get ready to come here, my stomach goes in nots because of the preasure I place on myself to explain to the best of my ability. I feel a burden to try to sway the beliefs of as many people as possible because of the problems I see with this belief. I let it get to me so I kept putting it off. Just pray for me and if I'm wrong, then pray for the Spirit to show me the truth. Thank you all.

God bless

Calvin

[JLW001]

Calvin, you have a very good attitude. Indeed I could be wrong or we could both be wrong. Its very difficult for our minds to grasp things of God's nature. The holy spirit within us will lead us a God desires.

Please don't put pressure on yourself in regard to our discussions. We are to edify one another and if I have caused you stress or problems, then please forgive me. It was not my intention.

There are things in the Bible that are very obvious, then there are things that may take a lifetime or more for us to understand. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things with me, but I did not mean to step out of the bounds of love.

I think sometimes it is very difficult to express what you mean by the written word because we are used to communicating with body language and tones. However, when there is no humility and recognition of one another a God's children, then we must be wary. I do hope that I did not come across in that manner and if I did then I must apologize again.

[kittylover0991]

I onyl have a little that i would like to add.... It says in the bible that Jesus would giv eus ever lasting life... His word also says "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".... Jesus also said "I will never you no forsake you".. and that no man can pluck us out of His Father's hand(Kitty NIV version ). We cannot loose that salvation... it is by the grace of God...

unforgivable sin... blasphemy of the holy spirit.... that is never accepting Christ throughout your entire life.....in other words... after you die, you cannot turn around and try and accept Christ becasue it will be too late

[Khristeeanos]

I onyl have a little that i would like to add.... It says in the bible that Jesus would giv eus ever lasting life... His word also says "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".... Jesus also said "I will never you no forsake you".. and that no man can pluck us out of  His Father's hand(Kitty NIV version ). We cannot loose that salvation... it is by the grace of God...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus never said "I will never leave you nor forsake you." That is a quote from the OT and is actually proof that OSAS is a false doctrine.

Go back and read it in context and you will see that for sure.

[Guest wilburnh]

JLW001, thank you for your post. I assure you that you have not presented yourself in any manner that can possibly be taken as an offense. I think most of the stress, is preasure that I put on myself. I have to say that this is also one of my most look forward to parts, and stressful, parts of the day.... when I'm about to see if anyone has responded to my posts lol.

Quote by Kittylover

I onyl have a little that i would like to add.... It says in the bible that Jesus would giv eus ever lasting life... His word also says "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast".... Jesus also said "I will never you no forsake you".. and that no man can pluck us out of His Father's hand(Kitty NIV version  ). We cannot loose that salvation... it is by the grace of God...

Yes, it does say that Jesus would give us everlasting life to those who believe. Once again, this believing is in the arotist tense which adds a more restrictive sense to His promise. To not sound like a broken record I won't go into exactly how this occurs since it appears on this thread at least a half dozen times (or at least it feels like it). "For by grace.... through faith....." this passage shows how we are saved right? We are saved by His grace, he offers something we have not earned or deserve, by means of faith. It goes on to say that it is not of works that we are saved... but does faith not include works? Is this a contradictory statement? Not if it is viewed as I think it should be. No, we can not save ourselves by our works. No amount of good that we do is going to save us; however, God requires us to be faithful (faith, endurance to end, hope to end...) after we receive salvation. I've been asked many times how I can know that I am saved if I don't have the 'assurance of all believers'. My answer is has been and always will be this: We know that we believe, we know that we have faith, we know that we are following after God by the works that we produce. Our actions show what our heart is made of for a reason. This reason is that we can know whether or not we are on our way toward an everlasting life with God.

No power... man or anything else can pluck us out of his hand.... what does this mean? If other scriptures are taken into context (hebrews 6 and so on) we can interpret this to mean that no one can force us from his hand. After all that is what I associate with plucking, taking quickly without permission. I do believe in the assurance of all Christians... that we have assurance that Jesus will hold us no matter what forces come and try to 'pluck' us from his care.

Don't sell the Holy Spirit short. He is always at work in our lives, if we let go and let Him have His way, we do not have to continue in sin. After all, 1 corinth 10:13 says that for one, we will not have temptation that we can not bear, and secondly that He will give us a way out of this temptation. So we can see that although sin is tempting and we will sucumb outside of the Holy Spirit, with the Spirit we do not need to and have no excuse to. James 1:14-16 is very clear on this. All men are tempted when the lusts/desires of the flesh and enticed. Then when lust has conceived it brings with it sin. Sin, at the end, causes death. Do not err my beloved brethren. We see how sin comes about and are told not to err. Taken with 1 corinth we can see that his is not an impossible request.

God bless

calvin

[JLW001]

The bible is very clear in Romans 9. God creates some people for base purposes (like Pharoah or Esau) and others he creates to be vessels that contain His holy spirit. Paul even says,

"13As it is written,

[JLW001]

Because we have the faith that God gives us, then that faith will produce works. James said you say you have faith, but I don't see the works produced by it. James says I don't have to tell you I have, you can very well see the works that God produces from the faith He gave me.

Its very easy to say that James says you don't have faith if you don't have works. Therefore, you must produce works to have faith and you must have faith to be saved and therefore you must have works to be saved. This is absolutely not what James says. James says that because you have faith the works will come. And I can prove my faith by showing you the fruit. So, it is not enough that you claim to have faith. Faith without works is dead. This means that if God has given you the faith, then your fruit will show it.

And that these works are the evidence of your salvation, not that they are necessary for your salvation. God gives you the faith that produces fruit that all can see. James is speaking to these false christians who boast of faith and yet the evidence does not show it. He basically means talk is cheap.

We can not know the hearts of men, but we can see the fruits of their heart. If a heart is bonded with God's spirit then you will be able to tell. If a false teacher is present, then you will be able to tell if you observe them when they are not putting on their show. It is by the fuit that you will know a tree.

This will guide you to discern whether or not you should listen to the teaching or preaching of an individual.

However, we must give the benefit of doubt to our brothers and sisters in Christ. We must help them if we see them sin and encourage them to do good. Paul speaks of this as well. In this way we edify one another. We all sin, but because of God's mercy, the Blood of Jesus, we are not sinners. God sees us as we will be, not as we are.

Praise and glory to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!!!

Edited March 31, 2005 by JLW001

[Guest wilburnh]

I find it hilarious that you are saying almost verbatim what I've been saying, but you are using it as an argument against what I've been saying lol. I completely agree that it is not we who produce works but the Holy Spirit working through us. If we let go and let God/Spirit, then we can't help but have good works. However, once we stop letting the Spirit have control in our lives, we stop producing the works because we take charge. Once we take charge we will slowly fall away. If a brother comes to our aid (james 5:19 & 20) then all is good. However if we keep going in the lifestyle we then fall under Hebrews 6.

Your explanation still does not address the tenses of salvation to the end which imply an ongoing commitment.

We have all sinned, but we do not have to keep sinning after receiving Christ. While this is impossible without the Spirit with the Spirit all things are possible. As we can see in 1 corinth 10:13 God will give us a way out of every temptation that comes our way and that it will not be too much to handle. I think that this is an important point. I believe that if we have to sin, then we can not be held accountable of our actions after salvation and would be much more inclined to believe in osas. However, since I know that we do not have to sin, I don't worry about this result.

Now concerning romans 9... if this is taken to mean that certain people have been made for salvation while there is not hope for others... well this goes against a large portion of the Bible. For ease we'll use the next chapter 10:12 & 13 which says:

12 for there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This doesn't say according to the election or to whom God has given grace. It says to anyone who calls, this person shall be saved. So we have an apparent problem with your interpretation and what I see in the rest of scripture. How do we remedy this? Well, I'm still working on this but here's my start... verse sixteen is not saying that He ignores those who call on Him who have not been made for salvation, rather He is saying that God reserves the right to make vessels (like pharaoh) to show his power. He makes, from time to time, people who balk at his power who will provide the way to demonstrate His power. I believe these individuals can still be saved, but only after He has demonstrated His power through them. I'm still working on this, so give me your input so we can work together to come to my belief lol.

Now for faith. I see the point you are making about him referring to those who said they have faith but do not - this is the short term view. The long term view is of someone who has been saved, who has faith which has been demonstrated by works. Now down the road this person no longer has works.... what now? James 2:26 says For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. While I agree that this references people who never had faith but claim to, it also can be used on those who used to have faith, but no longer have the works to go with it. It goes along with those verses that have the aortic tense. It is an ongoing relationship that we must have with Christ. In the above example was it the works that saved? A resounding No should go through everyones' mind at that question. Rather it was the Holy Spirit working through the individual that produced the works.

Let me try to recap this:

1. we do not do works for salvation but salvation produces works

2. we do not have to sin after salvation

3. Romans 9 does not refer to salvation but of demonstrating his power

4. faith, no matter the time stage, must have works if it is to be alive

God bless

calvin

[Guest wilburnh]

Maniac, we can't just take you word that the passage proves osas, please expound on this. Tell us why it proves osas.

God bless

calvin

[JLW001]

We have all sinned, but we do not have to keep sinning after receiving Christ

Did Paul say that he did not sin after receiving Christ?

Here is 1John

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life