Does the Hebrew translation of Genesis 1:1 leave the door open that Go

[Bonky]

1. Empirical Denotes: Observable, TESTABLE, Repeatable, and Falsifiable.  Jesus Christ (The CREATOR) was Here and passed all these with Flying Colors.

Can you elaborate?

[Lighty]

The reason why "heavens" is plural is because our universe is not the only one, there are 7 heavens, one on top of the other! Such is the majesty of God's creation. We live in the last heaven, decorated with stars.

I don't know exactly if the number 7 is mentioned in the bible, but I'm sure it also supports the idea of multiple heavens.

[Guest]

The reason why "heavens" is plural is because our universe is not the only one, there are 7 heavens, one on top of the other! Such is the majesty of God's creation. We live in the last heaven, decorated with stars.

I don't know exactly if the number 7 is mentioned in the bible, but I'm sure it also supports the idea of multiple heavens.

 

~

 

Beloved, Then There

 

I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 

 

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—

 

whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

 

And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—

 

whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

 

and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (English Standard Version)

 

Is The Holy

 

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching,

 

for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

that the man of God may be complete,

 

equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (English Standard Version)

 

Bible

 

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

 

No one comes to the Father

 

except through me. John 14:6 (English Standard Version)

[Lighty]

Thanks Joe! I always thought there are many heavens according to the Bible and now it's confirmed!

[Bonky]

Thank you, Bonky. The way you phrased this is great. You said "from an outsider's" perspective. It's good that you recognize the difference. That implies that there is knowledge, ideas, and a point of view that an "outsider" hasn't considered, or hasn't been presented to. You also, tactfully, use the word 'potentially'. Very non confrontational. You can ask (legitimate) questions and insert your own perspective without shutting down the debate entirely.

I'm envious of your tact. No joke. No sarcasm. I've met few "unbelievers" who are open minded enough to engage the topic this way. Or believers. Myself included (having been on both sides of the fence). I'm better now, though.

Thank you for the kind words. I've gone from dyed in the wool creationist [as a young man] to open minded atheist I guess. The topic of religion intrigues me, especially the religion that is most popular in the country in which I live.

*snipped for brevity*

Aside from that...the Bible is taken on faith. If we could "prove" the existence of God, we would BE God. We're not. Since we can't "prove" God, we can't prove His Word, either. Certainly not to an 'unbeliever'. This entire line of thought is beside the point, and a distraction from the point. The idea of life on anything other than Earth doesn't have the luxury of faith. Nor does evolution or anything else that places itself under the moniker of "science".

Well proof of anything is quite hard. It's impossible to prove anything really when you think about it.

Alien life forms is an interesting idea and something pleasant to play with, but it's just that and only that. It remains that until there's some actual evidence to back it up. Absent of evidence, it's just what Shiloh said it is; "wishful thinking". Or, as I said, an idea to play with. Nothing to be taken seriously, though.

Adding to that...Even if life were to be discovered elsewhere it would do nothing to promote either evolution, or the Bible. We would still find ourselves in the same debate. I, as a believer, would interpret that as further evidence of God's greatness and an evolutionist would interpret it as "proof" of evolution. Both of us would claim our stakes on faith. I say faith in the case of evolutionists because there would still be no observation, no hypotheses, no tests, and no predictable test'ing' of how such lifeforms ever arrived on a place other than Earth. Just the same speculation we have here on Earth. Back to square one...regardless of life on other planets. We would, inevitably, find ourselves in the same place. Except, then we would be even MORE polarized toward our particular beliefs, if possible (and I believe it is, possible). And, yes, they're both beliefs.

I agree it wouldn't really contradict anything in scripture that I'm aware of but for some reason scripture seems to have done a good job of giving us humans an egocentric view of reality. I think many Christians would prefer to not have life elsewhere...like the "wishful thinking" comment from Shiloh.

[Bonky]

The reason why "heavens" is plural is because our universe is not the only one, there are 7 heavens, one on top of the other! Such is the majesty of God's creation. We live in the last heaven, decorated with stars.

I don't know exactly if the number 7 is mentioned in the bible, but I'm sure it also supports the idea of multiple heavens.

Is this serious?

[Guest]

The reason why "heavens" is plural is because our universe is not the only one, there are 7 heavens, one on top of the other! Such is the majesty of God's creation. We live in the last heaven, decorated with stars.

I don't know exactly if the number 7 is mentioned in the bible, but I'm sure it also supports the idea of multiple heavens.

Is this serious?

 

~

 

Beloved,

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

This Dear Muslim Is Very Serious

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

And He Is No More A Bible Believer  

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Than Our Beloved Atheists Are

 

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

 

(Yet)

[Guest]

Thanks Joe! I always thought there are many heavens according to the Bible and now it's confirmed!

 

 

Three

 

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

 

Beloved, Three

 

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

 

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:14-16

 

As In Body, Soul And Spirit

 

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

 

Or Father, SON And Holy Ghost

 

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him,

 

and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son,

 

in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17

 

[Rodion_Raskolnikov_]

 

Thank you, Bonky. The way you phrased this is great. You said "from an outsider's" perspective. It's good that you recognize the difference. That implies that there is knowledge, ideas, and a point of view that an "outsider" hasn't considered, or hasn't been presented to. You also, tactfully, use the word 'potentially'. Very non confrontational. You can ask (legitimate) questions and insert your own perspective without shutting down the debate entirely.

I'm envious of your tact. No joke. No sarcasm. I've met few "unbelievers" who are open minded enough to engage the topic this way. Or believers. Myself included (having been on both sides of the fence). I'm better now, though.

Thank you for the kind words. I've gone from dyed in the wool creationist [as a young man] to open minded atheist I guess. The topic of religion intrigues me, especially the religion that is most popular in the country in which I live.

*snipped for brevity*

Aside from that...the Bible is taken on faith. If we could "prove" the existence of God, we would BE God. We're not. Since we can't "prove" God, we can't prove His Word, either. Certainly not to an 'unbeliever'. This entire line of thought is beside the point, and a distraction from the point. The idea of life on anything other than Earth doesn't have the luxury of faith. Nor does evolution or anything else that places itself under the moniker of "science".

Well proof of anything is quite hard. It's impossible to prove anything really when you think about it.

Alien life forms is an interesting idea and something pleasant to play with, but it's just that and only that. It remains that until there's some actual evidence to back it up. Absent of evidence, it's just what Shiloh said it is; "wishful thinking". Or, as I said, an idea to play with. Nothing to be taken seriously, though.

Adding to that...Even if life were to be discovered elsewhere it would do nothing to promote either evolution, or the Bible. We would still find ourselves in the same debate. I, as a believer, would interpret that as further evidence of God's greatness and an evolutionist would interpret it as "proof" of evolution. Both of us would claim our stakes on faith. I say faith in the case of evolutionists because there would still be no observation, no hypotheses, no tests, and no predictable test'ing' of how such lifeforms ever arrived on a place other than Earth. Just the same speculation we have here on Earth. Back to square one...regardless of life on other planets. We would, inevitably, find ourselves in the same place. Except, then we would be even MORE polarized toward our particular beliefs, if possible (and I believe it is, possible). And, yes, they're both beliefs.

I agree it wouldn't really contradict anything in scripture that I'm aware of but for some reason scripture seems to have done a good job of giving us humans an egocentric view of reality. I think many Christians would prefer to not have life elsewhere...like the "wishful thinking" comment from Shiloh.

 

Some people, who call themselves Christians, would have the egocentric view you speak of, Bonky. The Catholic Church, for example. They will accept any doctrine from the Papacy without even cracking open their Bibles.

Ironically, the Catholic Church has traditionally sided itself with popular modern science almost as long as there has been a Catholic Church. It sided with Aristotle in spite of Aristotle's ridiculous (untested) ideas of the "elements". Since everyone accepted the Catholic Church's stance on anything, their acceptance of Aristotle probably set true science back  hundreds of years. The Catholic Church took a stance against Copernicus and executed him for his Heliocentric idea of the Solar System. We now know he was right. Now, the Catholic church is acclimating itself to notions like: evolution and "climate change"...go figure...or don't. There is a historical precedent for this kind of thing.

True logicians, true scientists, like: Copernicus, or Newton were Christian. They have never been in opposition to the Bible, or Biblical concepts. They only observe and document. God wouldn't have it any other way. They were completely honest, scientifically, as is God. I can't label Einstein a Christian, but even he knew that God exists.

Any Christian, who is honest and has studied (not simply read) the Bible would understand that life on other planets would only serve to support God's greatness.

There have always been people who claimed the name of God, but only claimed it. The Inquisitors, for example. Since when did God ever command us to torture people into confession? Never. Where does the Inquisition have a Biblical precedent? It doesn't. The Crusades, with its indulgences and promise of life long forgiveness of sin depending upon your military service and financial contributions. Where is the Biblical precedent for this? Nowhere. There isn't one...anywhere in any Bible. We have always taken "liberties" with the Word. Assuming that life on other planets affirms evolution is another incorrect "liberty" of reason. Incorrect. Simply for the fact that it assumes. Not science, in any sense. Also, contrary to Biblical precedent.

Yes, you're right. Many people would be threatened by the discovery of life on other planets. For no other reason than because it would give atheists "ammunition". I include myself among these. However, I understand that just because an atheist claims a thing I don't need to be threatened by it. God is real. Evolution requires testing no matter which cosmic rock we happen to discover life upon. Pure logic and pure science tells me that there is no more proof for evolution on another planet than there is on this one. Certainly, no more observation and testing.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rodion_Raskolnikov_

[Rodion_Raskolnikov_]

The quote by "Lighty" is good, but irrelevant to this.

Yeah, Bonky. 'Feel like that three legged cat I mentioned weeks ago? If you remember the quote I'm referencing, I apologize for being one of the dogs. Dog I am, though.

This site is different, though. You can disagree here without being insulted, yelled at, and otherwise laughed out. The same considerations are never given on any atheist site, I've found (unfortunately).

Paraphrasing Patrick Henry: our government was not formed on religion but upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is because of this that people of other faiths are afforded asylum within our Nation...The same goes here. Because this site is founded upon the Gospels of Jesus Christ anyone has a right to voice their opinion here. This is as it should be. Again, the same considerations aren't given in an atheist site, or government.

You said that you began as a Creationist. I'm polar opposite to that. I began as a stoic atheist. Interesting.

I was always taught to believe in morality, and logic (absent of God). It makes sense that I would, eventually, come to the conclusion of either God or pure anarchy. I chose God and the God that makes the most sense is the God of the Bible...just ask Paul (who was Saul).

I know how I came to my beliefs. I wonder, though, what made you come to yours? Or, turn from beliefs, as it is. You don't have to answer if it's too personal. Just asking because I have a true curiosity.