Possible Turkey, Iran alliance - Ezekiel 38?

[Serving]

Hi Diaste,

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

Not at all .. I'm glad to discuss this with you ..

 

 

** If the vision is for the future then why doesn't the list begin at Babylon?

As in:

1) Babylon

2) Persia

3) Greece

4) Rome

5) Islam?

6) Maybe Mongols? They had the  biggest empire in the history of the world.

7) British Empire? They ruled over the greatest population in history.

Just speculation.

 

** The simple answer :

 

Because the vision was a reply to King Nebuchadnezzar's question .. a reply to king Neb (don't forget, God was working through /for Neb too) .. and since king Neb didn't exist until that point in history & two empires had already passed .. God wasn't going to answer king Neb before he was even born .. (even though I acknowledge that the visions are really for all of us in the bigger picture) which admission then forces me a little further down the Rabbit hole to this : 

 

God withheld the vision until Babylon simply because the vision only affects those for whom the vision was given  .. what I mean is this, by that stage of history, Israel was already utterly taken away by Assyria & had already ceased as a nation, so this vision does not regard them, it regards what is left of "Israel"..  it regards Judah (with her small sprinkling of the other tribes living amongst her) 

 

So by the time the 3rd empire (Babylon) arose, by necessity, a new chain of prophetic visions etc needed arising in like manner for those it is affecting .. pointless giving this vision format earlier considering that those it would not affect were still present.

 

God often divides His prophecies in relation to whom they are affecting .. which is exactly what is reflected in the statue vision .. for the only "national Israel" that was left in the world at that stage was Judah.

 

 

I understand that the interpretation is for Babylon and what comes after. Why do we add Egypt and Assyria to the 'five that are fallen'? I just want to understand the logic.

 

 

Ever wondered why God only counted 7 main empires considering that Earth has seen way more than 7 major empires throughout history?

 

Well .. the logic is this .. there is one common link the 7 empires all share .. Israel. 

 

Israel & timing .. God's timing involving Israel coincided with those 7 empires whom God used to accomplish His will amongst the nations. 

 

(PS) : Diaste, to avoid arguing over who empire #7 is before it morphs into #8 .. I will only address 6 empires if you don't mind / understand.

 

1 Egypt was the "womb" of Israel

 

2 Assyria was God's axe to punish Israel

 

3 Babylon was both God's axe for Assyria & for the bad figs of Israel & also the rescuers (of the good figs) of Israel

 

4 Medo Persia was both God's axe for Babylon (she Babylon went too far in her rage / oppression) & rescuers (of the good figs) of Israel  

 

5 Greece is complicated to explain (lots of points which play out in the long run (bigger picture) not only for the whole world, but for Israel too .. side note: (it is no accident God chose Greek as the language for the NT .. a language where every word can have nearly six meanings each !! .. very significant on several levels .. all of them negative to those fiddling with the written word these last 150 years .. this is a very deep reason for reasons of condemnation on personal levels)

 

6 Rome was God's axe against Israel & appropriate nations & also a template (based on Greek culture and carried forth) to be a type of our "global modern civilization"

 

And this is why the counting of the 7 empires had to start before Babylon / before Daniels interpreting of king Nebs dream .. the count had already started because prophecy concerning Israel was already at work in the world before Babylon arose as a power.. and it all started in Egypt (concerning Israel on a national (numbers wise) level)

 

  

 

Its seems confusing. I thought the statue represented kingdoms and the verse, " And there are seven kings..." were kings, not kingdoms.

 

Yes the statue concerns kingdoms but don't forget this .. remember the head of gold, well, God said "This is you" king Neb .. your kingdom .. you are the head of gold .. how can it (head of gold) be an individual & a kingdom at the same time? .. simply, no kingdom lives without a king (ruler) & no king is a king (with power) without a kingdom to back him .. they join at the hips ..

 

Here is what God said:

 

Revelation 17

 

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

And .. and .. and there are 7 kings

 

See the separation between kings & empires just then .. but there is more ..

 

Every head of the 7 headed beast except the last head has one horn (king) each.

 

But Egypt for example had many kings .. not just one .. and so on and so on .. so what is God communicating then concerning those kings?

 

He is communicating that those individual kings at varying stages of those particular empires  (relative to Israel) each played their (their = singular = one horn)  special roles in Gods plan directly towards Israel His people at a particular time of God's timing / choosing  .. and / or .. God is communicating dynasties (not necessarily bloodlines but more like empire orientated dynasties) .. choose either one .. because you can't have one without the other anyway .. no king (ruler) = no empire & no empire without a king (ruler)

 

 

 

So to get the other 2 empires is also simple .. just look for them in the world before king Nebs Babylon.

 

Ok. I did that. We could also include Sumeria, Kush, and Mesopotamia. These were Empires that predated Egypt(Kush) and existed contemporaneously with Babylon(Mesopotamia). The 'five are fallen' could be Kush, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. Making the sixth 'that is' Persia. The 7th would be Greece. Greece was short lived in the grand scheme. Alexander took power in 336 BC and was dead by 323 BC, very short lived compared to the others.

 

Just saying...

 

Now you see the logic behind it having to be Egypt then Assyria etc etc .. Israel had to be involved.

 

No link to Israel .. no importance to Gods plan.

 

Thanks Diaste.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Serving

[Serving]

Hi Diaste ..

 

oops I missed this:

 

Can you cite a chapter and verse so I can check it out?

 

 

Daniel 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

 

As you see .. like I said & as you rightly asked .. God was answering king Neb's question (though it concerns all of us seekers past & present (for our benefit) in the bigger picture)

 

Thanks Diaste.

[Sister]

Hi Diaste

 

I agree with Serving.  The kingdoms of Egypt and Medo-Persia were before Babylon.  When we come to the head of the statue, which is Babylon, this 3rd empire was ruling at the time... and the rest follow.

Do you mean Egypt and Assyria? Persia is the silver in the statue. I also thought the statue dream said that Babylon was the head of gold. Doesn't that make Babylon first, and at the top? The beginning from which the rest follows?

 

Yes sorry, I meant  Egypt and Assyrsia were before Babylon.

Not just Persia in the silver, but Medo-Persia.  Both kingdoms joined.

Babylon was the head of Gold.  King Nebs dream of the statue concerned his kingdom and the ones to follow after him.

Babylon is at the top of this vision, however, cannot dismiss the other two empires that ruled before Babylon, we will need to keep them in mind when we get to Rev 13.

 

ou asked how does this correspond to the beast in Revelation?

The beast in Rev coming out of the sea includes all the 7 kingdoms from beginning to end. Why? Can you give the scripture so I can read about it?

 

 

Revelation 13:1   And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 

 

We also know that this same end time kingdom which is the 7th kingdom, morphs into an 8th kingdom when the False prophet arises out of the ten.  We are not told this in the interpretation of the statue, but if we read further on in Daniel, we find out that the false prophet (little horn) comes out of the ten kings. I'm pretty sure the 'little horn' is the beast and not the false prophet. :-)

 

I think I explained this to you earlier.

There are two "beasts" in rev 13. 

One coming out of the sea (Rev 13:1), and one coming out of the earth (Rev 13:11)

 

The beast coming out of the sea is all of Satan's 7 empires,...but take note of the 10 horns with the ten crowns.  These 10 horns will be on the 7th kingdom, the last head, as this kingdom is ruled and controlled by 10 kings.

The next beast that rises coming out of the earth is a man.  He is the man who enforces the number of the beast.  This is the False prophet, who is the little horn coming out of the 10 kings as explained in Daniel.  He's the one with the big mouth.

When Christ comes, he throws the beast into the lake of fire with the False prophet.  This is the proof in the pudding.  The beast is the 10 kings, and their system, and the false prophet is the one doing all the miracles in the sight of the beast (10 kings).  They work together

The False prophet is that Little horn who sprung up out of the 10;

 

 Daniel 7:7   After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:8   I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

 

Daniel 7:21   I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Daniel 7:22   Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
 

The world call him the Anti-Christ but he is called "The False Prophet" in Revelations.  This is what God calls him.

The False prophet is working alongside with the 10 kings.  He comes up out of them.  They produce him, their leader.

 

[Sister]

It's this last 7th empire, who will be ruling at the time to help fulfill Satan's plan in bringing back the world to be "one" again, as it was in Babel,

and the coming together "as one" is this beast that "was" and "is not" (Babel) and is "of the seven" (associated with the 7th kingdom only)

I get what you are saying though I'm sure that trade has nothing to do with what is coming. The reason we can't buy or sell unless we have the mark is to pressure us into a choice. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with forcing the world to worship the dragon and the beast. But the big question remains. When I read Rev 17:9-12 I see a future prophecy.  What you and Serving seem to be saying is something a little different. If I under stand correctly you both are saying:

 

 

 

The Mark of the beast has everything to do with trade.  This is how they will sell it......to lure everyone in, but we know it's much more than that.  The world won't know.  No man can buy or sell unless he has this mark.

It will be a universal dollar, and it will replace cash.  It won't be in Euro or USA dollars etc, but a new global money system.  The nations need this to trade, and we will need it to buy food etc.  We need it to operate our businesses, and this is trade.

 

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 

Verse 9 is future. I'm good with that, Catholicism hadn't been invented At the time John received this prophecy. Verse 10 is the problem verse.

 

 

No, not all future, already 5 have passed during Johns day.

Egypt - gone

Assyria - gone

Babylon - gone

Medo-Persia - gone

Greecia - gone

All gone,.... already and history in Johns day.

Rome was ruling.

 

 

10 And there are seven kings: Can't tell what tense this is. It's declarative, There simply are 7 kings. But since it's prophecy I assume it's about the future from when it was given, as is Revelation from Chapter 4 to the end.

 

There are 7 kings in total from the beginning of the first kingdom to the end when Christ returns.  These are all Satan's kingdoms who play a major role.  These kingdoms all lead to the one who will produce the False Prophet.  It's down this line that he comes out of.

 

10 five are fallen...Serving and yourself are saying this part of verse 10 is past.

 

Yes. The five empires were already finished during Roman rule in Johns day.

 

10 and one is...You are saying this part is the present.

 

No, we are saying that this one "is" during "Johns day".....this is Rome.  Rome was ruling then in Johns day.

 

10 and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Now we are back to the future.

 

Rome is gone, finished.  We are in the future now.  This mysterious kingdom to come is here now.  Present. 

 

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Verse 11 is future. I'm good with this too. The beast has not risen yet.

 

Yes.

 

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Verse 12 is future. I'm good with this as well. These 10 kings have not yet been empowered. What I'm asking is: How can an incomplete thought, "...five are fallen, and one is..." be about the the past when the subject, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, is future? That's what I'm wondering.

 

 

Because you are associating the beast with the 7 heads as to come, when in fact the beast is already here.  We must concentrate on the last head of this beast with the 10 horns, because this is the last kingdom to rule. This is the one who will be destroyed at the coming, and her "system" will be thrown into the lake of fire, never to return ever again.

 

 

What I see is this: The 10 horn 7 headed beast "shall ascend" out of the pit. Well if the beast and the horns and the heads "shall ascend" then none of the heads(kings) can be past. The horned beast with 10 crowns is one entity that hasn't yet arrived. He comes with the heads and the horns sometime after John writes down "things which must be hereafter."(Rev 4:1)

 

 

The 7 headed 10 horned beast ascends out of "the sea".  These kingdoms come out of populations/peoples.  They've inherited their kingdoms, or conquered nations.

The other beast (False Prophet) comes out of the "earth".  He's not coming out of peoples, has not inherited his kingdom or received his power through conquering, but is chosen by Satan.

He's earthborn, ...a man, ... the idea and the whole purpose of him comes from Satan, out of the bottomless pit.

The plan comes out of the bottomless pit, because it's of Satan.

[Diaste]

 

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Verse 12 is future. I'm good with this as well. These 10 kings have not yet been empowered. What I'm asking is: How can an incomplete thought, "...five are fallen, and one is..." be about the the past when the subject, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, is future? That's what I'm wondering.

 

 

Because you are associating the beast with the 7 heads as to come, when in fact the beast is already here.  We must concentrate on the last head of this beast with the 10 horns, because this is the last kingdom to rule. This is the one who will be destroyed at the coming, and her "system" will be thrown into the lake of fire, never to return ever again.

 

That still doesn't answer the question. We are talking about past present and future from the time when the prophecy was received, not our time. When Jesus gave the prophecy to John the voice said: Rev 4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Everything that comes AFTER Rev 4:1 is future from John's day. That includes Rev 17:10 "And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come: and when he comes, he must continue a short space."

How can Jesus say, "I will show you what must take place after this." and say later, "Well, five kings have come and gone, and one is ruling right now. But that's ok, the rest of my words are for the future from your time." ?

That would mean the prophecy was written after the fact and therefore is not prophecy at all.

 

[Diaste]

 

What I see is this: The 10 horn 7 headed beast "shall ascend" out of the pit. Well if the beast and the horns and the heads "shall ascend" then none of the heads(kings) can be past. The horned beast with 10 crowns is one entity that hasn't yet arrived. He comes with the heads and the horns sometime after John writes down "things which must be hereafter."(Rev 4:1)

 

 

The 7 headed 10 horned beast ascends out of "the sea".  These kingdoms come out of populations/peoples.  They've inherited their kingdoms, or conquered nations.

The other beast (False Prophet) comes out of the "earth".  He's not coming out of peoples, has not inherited his kingdom or received his power through conquering, but is chosen by Satan.

He's earthborn, ...a man, ... the idea and the whole purpose of him comes from Satan, out of the bottomless pit.

The plan comes out of the bottomless pit, because it's of Satan.

 

 

I think you are confusing the two beasts from Rev 13 and 17. In Rev 13 the beast we see  rising out of the sea is the Antichrist. The beast from the earth in Rev 13 is the false prophet. The Rev 13 beast is an amalgamation of previous empires. The leopard, bear and lion are analogous to Babylon, Persia and Greece, the three kingdoms that the Iron kingdom from the statue replaced. This beast we see in Rev 13 gives rise to the antichrist, or beast of the deadly head wound that was healed. This beast rises from the sea, or people.

It has 7 heads because the final beast comes from the 7, all the heads rose from the sea with the beast. It has 10 horns because they are analogous to the ten toes of the statue in Dan 2, and the 10 kings from Rev 17, "..who receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

 

The beast from Rev 17 is a different beast, scarlet in color and ascends from the pit. This beast also has 7 heads and 10 horns representing the same things but for a different reason. This beast is the one empowering the 7 heads which give rise to the eighth beast and also giving power to the final beast which enables the last beast to empower the 10 kings. It's this beast that I'm concerned with.

 

The scarlet beast from Rev 17 is the dragon, Satan. In John's day this beast had not yet ascended. Rev 17:8 says this beast 'shall' ascend out of the bottomless pit. Once this beast ascends from the pit then we can get the "and there are 7 kings, one is..." Not before John's day as Rev 4:1 says: "...I will show you things which must be hereafter."

The point is the scarlet beast will ascend, and then we can have the woman on 7 hills and the seven kings, but not before John's day.

 

Again, if the scarlet beast 'shall ascend' or 'will rise' from the pit, and the scarlet beast brings the 7 kings and the woman with it, then the beast, woman and the 7 kings are future from John's day and none of them can be in the past, from John's day.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Diaste

[Diaste]

 

The Mark of the beast has everything to do with trade.  This is how they will sell it......to lure everyone in, but we know it's much more than that.  The world won't know.  No man can buy or sell unless he has this mark.

It will be a universal dollar, and it will replace cash.  It won't be in Euro or USA dollars etc, but a new global money system.  The nations need this to trade, and we will need it to buy food etc.  We need it to operate our businesses, and this is trade.

 

The mark of the beast literally has nothing to do with control through a monetary system. It seems the whole christian community has this idea that the last empire will come about through some kind of global reconditioning. The whole world will realize that we are in dire straits and pool all their resources to combat disasters, disease, famine and debt ridden economies.

The world will then become one under language, goals and most importantly, MONEY.

All the rich and powerful will willingly hand over enormous resources and scads of cash, including their hold on power and influence to one man. This man will supposedly have super intelligence and solve all the worlds crises, including putting a stop to major wars and the world will blindly follow him. After the rich, famous, powerful, bankers, and military leaders have turned over their power and money to one man, this man will reveal himself as the beast and take over the world.

Does anyone really think the whloe world is going to come together in agreement on any one thing, and much more difficult to agree on all the major problems facing the world. No. Not going to happen like that.

Here's how it goes down:

The beast is slain, and is healed, and the world wonders after him. This is the cause of the adulation, wonder and awe of the world in regards to the beast. Not great diplomatic skill nor super intelligence but a supernatural wonder the likes of which we have never seen, probably a healed beheading, now that would make quite the viral video!

Rev 13

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The beast is then empowered and the false prophet arrives. This second beast, the beast out of the earth, has all the power of the first beast and he casuses the world to worship the first beast.

Rev 13

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

The second beast, false prophet, also makes everyone to receive the mark of the beast. Plus he makes them all make an image to the first beast, deceives the people of earth with miracles, gives life to the image of the beast,(how about that for Sci-Fi-Fantasy-Horror?) and makes fire come down from heaven. This has nothing to do with a monetary system and it has everything to with forcing people to take the mark or die. Now everyone has to receive the mark  and it includes the Great, the Rich and the Free that are forced to get this mark or they cannot buy or sell. If the great and rich are already in on the deal of creating the single global currency they would not have to be coerced into taking the mark in order to by and sell. And, it doesn't matter how many different kinds of currency there are if the law states no buying or selling can occur by those who do not carry the mark.

Rev 13

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

This won't be a global concerted effort by the nations of the world to coalesce into a universal force for good that solves the worlds problems at the guidance of a man with a secret identity.

Everything about the rise to power of the beast, and the subjugation of the planet, is supernatural and he is after the worship of the global population and installing himself as god.

Rev 13

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

None of that is going to occur using anything man made except as tools of control after the fact.

[Diaste]

Hi Diaste ..

 

oops I missed this:

 

Can you cite a chapter and verse so I can check it out?

 

 

Daniel 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

 

As you see .. like I said & as you rightly asked .. God was answering king Neb's question (though it concerns all of us seekers past & present (for our benefit) in the bigger picture)

 

Thanks Diaste.

Thanks. But I meant some scripture that shows we can include some arbitrary kingdoms that came before Babylon in order to reconcile the logical gap between The statue in Daniel 2 and the 7 kings from Rev 17:10.

For instance, The Kingdoms are named out right in the intrepretation: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Iron Kingdom. No other kingdoms are named nor hinted at in Dan 2. Neither is the statue of Dan 2 mentioned in Rev 17. It really looks to me like the many authors I have read are simply grasping at straws when they equate Rome to the Iron Kingdom and Rome to the 'one is' statement from Rev 17. There simply is no biblical proof that Rome is the fourth kingdom of the statue in Dan 2 nor the 6th that is from Rev 17.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Diaste

[Diaste]

Hi Diaste,

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

Not at all .. I'm glad to discuss this with you ..

 

 

** If the vision is for the future then why doesn't the list begin at Babylon?

As in:

1) Babylon

2) Persia

3) Greece

4) Rome

5) Islam?

6) Maybe Mongols? They had the  biggest empire in the history of the world.

7) British Empire? They ruled over the greatest population in history.

Just speculation.

 

** The simple answer :

 

Because the vision was a reply to King Nebuchadnezzar's question .. a reply to king Neb (don't forget, God was working through /for Neb too) .. and since king Neb didn't exist until that point in history & two empires had already passed .. God wasn't going to answer king Neb before he was even born .. (even though I acknowledge that the visions are really for all of us in the bigger picture) which admission then forces me a little further down the Rabbit hole to this : 

 

God withheld the vision until Babylon simply because the vision only affects those for whom the vision was given  .. what I mean is this, by that stage of history, Israel was already utterly taken away by Assyria & had already ceased as a nation, so this vision does not regard them, it regards what is left of "Israel"..  it regards Judah (with her small sprinkling of the other tribes living amongst her) 

 

So by the time the 3rd empire (Babylon) arose, by necessity, a new chain of prophetic visions etc needed arising in like manner for those it is affecting .. pointless giving this vision format earlier considering that those it would not affect were still present.

 

God often divides His prophecies in relation to whom they are affecting .. which is exactly what is reflected in the statue vision .. for the only "national Israel" that was left in the world at that stage was Judah.

 

 

I understand that the interpretation is for Babylon and what comes after. Why do we add Egypt and Assyria to the 'five that are fallen'? I just want to understand the logic.

 

 

Ever wondered why God only counted 7 main empires considering that Earth has seen way more than 7 major empires throughout history?

 

Well .. the logic is this .. there is one common link the 7 empires all share .. Israel. 

 

Israel & timing .. God's timing involving Israel coincided with those 7 empires whom God used to accomplish His will amongst the nations. 

 

(PS) : Diaste, to avoid arguing over who empire #7 is before it morphs into #8 .. I will only address 6 empires if you don't mind / understand.

 

1 Egypt was the "womb" of Israel

 

2 Assyria was God's axe to punish Israel

 

3 Babylon was both God's axe for Assyria & for the bad figs of Israel & also the rescuers (of the good figs) of Israel

 

4 Medo Persia was both God's axe for Babylon (she Babylon went too far in her rage / oppression) & rescuers (of the good figs) of Israel  

 

5 Greece is complicated to explain (lots of points which play out in the long run (bigger picture) not only for the whole world, but for Israel too .. side note: (it is no accident God chose Greek as the language for the NT .. a language where every word can have nearly six meanings each !! .. very significant on several levels .. all of them negative to those fiddling with the written word these last 150 years .. this is a very deep reason for reasons of condemnation on personal levels)

 

6 Rome was God's axe against Israel & appropriate nations & also a template (based on Greek culture and carried forth) to be a type of our "global modern civilization"

 

And this is why the counting of the 7 empires had to start before Babylon / before Daniels interpreting of king Nebs dream .. the count had already started because prophecy concerning Israel was already at work in the world before Babylon arose as a power.. and it all started in Egypt (concerning Israel on a national (numbers wise) level)

 

  

 

Its seems confusing. I thought the statue represented kingdoms and the verse, " And there are seven kings..." were kings, not kingdoms.

 

Yes the statue concerns kingdoms but don't forget this .. remember the head of gold, well, God said "This is you" king Neb .. your kingdom .. you are the head of gold .. how can it (head of gold) be an individual & a kingdom at the same time? .. simply, no kingdom lives without a king (ruler) & no king is a king (with power) without a kingdom to back him .. they join at the hips ..

 

Here is what God said:

 

Revelation 17

 

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

And .. and .. and there are 7 kings

 

See the separation between kings & empires just then .. but there is more ..

 

Every head of the 7 headed beast except the last head has one horn (king) each.

 

But Egypt for example had many kings .. not just one .. and so on and so on .. so what is God communicating then concerning those kings?

 

He is communicating that those individual kings at varying stages of those particular empires  (relative to Israel) each played their (their = singular = one horn)  special roles in Gods plan directly towards Israel His people at a particular time of God's timing / choosing  .. and / or .. God is communicating dynasties (not necessarily bloodlines but more like empire orientated dynasties) .. choose either one .. because you can't have one without the other anyway .. no king (ruler) = no empire & no empire without a king (ruler)

 

 

 

So to get the other 2 empires is also simple .. just look for them in the world before king Nebs Babylon.

 

Ok. I did that. We could also include Sumeria, Kush, and Mesopotamia. These were Empires that predated Egypt(Kush) and existed contemporaneously with Babylon(Mesopotamia). The 'five are fallen' could be Kush, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. Making the sixth 'that is' Persia. The 7th would be Greece. Greece was short lived in the grand scheme. Alexander took power in 336 BC and was dead by 323 BC, very short lived compared to the others.

 

Just saying...

 

Now you see the logic behind it having to be Egypt then Assyria etc etc .. Israel had to be involved.

 

No link to Israel .. no importance to Gods plan.

 

Thanks Diaste.

It just seems like so much speculation. 

If I take your meaning of 'axe' correctly any nation who is an 'axe' punished Israel. Well, that then excludes Rome as an 'axe'. The Jews had a prominent place in the daily life of Rome. The Romans were very tolerant of other beliefs and peoples and were not persecuting Jews in the first century. We see the Jews had power in Roman culture from the scriptures when they demanded that Pilate crucify Jesus. Pilate wanted to show them favor even though he found Jesus not guilty. (Mark 15) Now why would a Roman governor do that if the Jews were under persecution by Rome? He would not.

The histories tell us that christians were persecuted by Rome and in large part due to the pressure from the Jews. This was the norm until 313 BC when Constantine legalized christianity. Persecution of the Jews began at this point, at the hands of christians! If anyone was an axe to the Israel in Rome it was the christian faith and not Roman citizens.

Under these facts alone Rome is excluded as an 'axe' to the Jews. That throws the whole timeline of empires in to disarray. If Rome isn't the Iron Kingdom then it's likely not the 'one is' either.

There is a seamless and unforced interpretation to all this and neither Rome, Egypt nor Assyria play into it.

[Sister]

 

 

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Verse 12 is future. I'm good with this as well. These 10 kings have not yet been empowered. What I'm asking is: How can an incomplete thought, "...five are fallen, and one is..." be about the the past when the subject, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, is future? That's what I'm wondering.

 

 

Because you are associating the beast with the 7 heads as to come, when in fact the beast is already here.  We must concentrate on the last head of this beast with the 10 horns, because this is the last kingdom to rule. This is the one who will be destroyed at the coming, and her "system" will be thrown into the lake of fire, never to return ever again.

 

That still doesn't answer the question. We are talking about past present and future from the time when the prophecy was received, not our time. When Jesus gave the prophecy to John the voice said: Rev 4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Everything that comes AFTER Rev 4:1 is future from John's day. That includes Rev 17:10 "And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come: and when he comes, he must continue a short space."

How can Jesus say, "I will show you what must take place after this." and say later, "Well, five kings have come and gone, and one is ruling right now. But that's ok, the rest of my words are for the future from your time." ?

That would mean the prophecy was written after the fact and therefore is not prophecy at all.

 

 

Diaste

 

We have to discern the scriptures.  Most of Revelation is prophecy, but Christ has given us some background also, so that we can connect these scriptures with the prophecies from Daniel.

Revelation and parts of Daniel go hand in hand.  This is how the holy spirit works, bits of information here and there, until suddenly a picture forms when we put the dots together.

 

All of us  should start our journey by reading the NT.  We cover the milk in gospels, then move to the more solid food the more we read.  Once we reach Revelations, we come across all the real deep knowledge regarding the finale of this world as we know it.

 

Not one single person could ever understand Rev 13 straight off, unless he seeks more understanding.  The only way is to go back to the Word in the OT, and in Daniel we find the explanation of these kingdoms in more detail, especially the last kingdom that will be ruling when Christ returns. 

Daniel explained to us the image starting from Babylon to the final last end time kingdom.  It's this last end time kingdom of the 10 toes that will be destroyed.  Concentrate on this.

 

Daniel 2:44   And in the days of these kings (10 kings) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

  Daniel 2:45   Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 

This stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands is Jesus Christ.

The mountain is the Kingdom of God.

This stone gets hurled at the feet, the last empire, and the whole thing comes crashing down (the whole system of Satan's kingdoms)

without the clue in Rev (beast with 7 heads) we would never be able to work out this mystery in Daniel.

The statue in Daniel gives us 5 kingdoms, ...the Rev beast can still not be solved because 5 kingdoms of Daniel does not fully explain the 7 kingdoms in Rev as you said.

...so we have to delve deeper into the scriptures and go to older parts of the OT to realise that Egypt was the first main kingdom after Babel, then Assyria rose ...before Babylon.

 

Now we have our seven major kingdoms worked out, and it makes sense that these 7 kingdoms of Satan is what God is really showing us.  These seven kingdoms have shaped the world and Satan has had his eye on these kingdoms to achieve his plan.  The whole time God has stopped Satan from fulfilling his plan (one world, one leader), but lets him go in the final kingdom to achieve this.

God is showing us and giving an insight that Satan has held these 7 kingdoms in his hand the whole time, but the last kingdom is the one to watch out for, for this is when Christ will return to crush, punish and put an end to it. It's this last head that John was prophesying about during his day (under Rome),

1st head - egypt  (fallen)

2nd head - Assyria (fallen)

3rd head - Babylon (fallen)

4th head - Medo/Persia (fallen)

5th head - Greecia (fallen)

6th head - Rome - (In power, John's prophecy here).

7th head - next kingdom to come  ....(this one will be the last and produce the False Prophet who will finish us off)

 

So the it's the 7th head that is prophecy in Rev.  This is the head that God is specifically showing us. (Rev 13:1, then read on about this last head, it's not speaking of the ones before it, but the last one only)

 

 

and now we are at this stage.  All is being fulfilled before our eyes or just about there.