Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

[Guest shiloh357]

Jim you cited (at least partially) Luke 6:38.   I pointed out that Luke 6:37-38 are one complete thought.  Those two verses are part of a complete thought that Jesus was making about condemning/judging, stating that the measure with which you judge it will be given back, pressed down, shaken together....  etc.

 

I am not judging any servants of God.   They are already under God's judgment for false teaching and leading many astray. 

 

You also cited the 30, 60 and 100 fold promises and I have shown that that also has nothing to do with money, but is talking about the Word of God. 

 

You held up two references of Scripture as dealing with money and I have shown that neither of your references have ANYTHING to do with money.  

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

God wants gifts from a " cheerful giver" if one has to tithe grudgingly or tithe and let the family go without food ...this cannot be pleasing to the Father.

A. This would also depend on how much faith a person has towards God and tithing. When we give out of Love and Trust in God and His word and know that we know He will bless us back then we tithe even if it looks like we wont eat for God can do more through your tithe then we could through spending the money on food.

B. When we give because we feel forced to or to make a show of it or because we feel we have to do this or God will get us then our tithes will not produce the fruits in return that we had wanted.

C. The story of the widow woman and her few mites is an example of the first in which had total trust and faith in God and you know God moved on her behalf quickly. 

D. Speaking of which how about the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again.... 

E. Tithing and giving can be placed right up there with some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold.

How much Faith and trust do you have in God and His written word........think of it like this.....those who reaped 30 fold had about 30 fold faith and 70 fold doubt and unbelief......People tend to believe that their own faith is strong but continue to speak words of doubt and unbelief and fear and so forth. This works against your faith.

F. It is said through out His written word out of the abundance of the heart the mouth does speak and issues of life flow through our mouths. I said this because His word also teaches us we need to keep seed and the tithe watered or moistend and in good ground. Most people tend to think the ground is only about where you planted the tithe or seed but your heart and words matter much.

G. In short.........ones tithe can bring blessings or nothing or very little depending on the heart and faith of the one who Gives it. God said He would rebuke the devourer for our sake but if the tithe is not given correctly or out of a true heart then yea buy your food instead but for me and my house................We can simply NOT afford to NOT tithe. Every single penny that comes into our home gets tithed on.

Blessings

jim

A. No idea of the Scripture reference here.

B. Again, no idea of the Scripture reference here.

C. Looks like the reference here "widow woman and her few mites is an example of the first in which had total trust and faith in God and you know God moved on her behalf quickly. " is to Mark 12:41-44 & Luke 21:1-4. Is this correct?

 

D. Looks like the reference here "the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again.... " is to 1 Kings 17:8-24. Is this correct? 

 

E. Looks like the reference here "some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold." is to Matthew 13:1-9 and Luke 8:4-15 Is this correct?

 

F. Looks like the reference here "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth does speak" is to Matthew 12:34 & Luke 6:45. Also perhaps again a reference to Matthew 13:1-9 and Luke 8:4-15. Is this correct?

 

G. Looks like the reference here "rebuke the devourer for our sake" is to Malachi 3:11 and "but for me and my house" is Joshua 24:15. Is this correct? Not sure where "if the tithe is not given correctly" comes from. Perhaps the reference is to giving cheerfully like in 2 Cor. 9:6-8?

 

God bless,

GE

Spend time with God seeking His desire for the tithe. The tithe is Holy to Him and is not just about throwing money in the bucket.

God showed us to even take comunion over our tithes before we give them.

When a parable or story is given in the bible it is there for a reason. The widow giving out of her want or need was shown for a reason vs the rich man giving some from his plenty. Who trusted God more ?

As far as A and B , well spend time seeking God and you will learn what kind of Heart it is He desires and what Kind of heart will see results that not only take care of you and your house but others as well. This is all so simple and yet many here are trying to claim I am speaking some forbidden talk that will shoot me down or something.

Also why do you look for scripture reference for things I said speaking about my house and family ? For me and my house ? Well that is just what is says....Me and my family or house hold...... ; )

I do not understand why some feel they need to tear things down if they do not line up with their personal beliefs. There are three in here that keep doing this and it is foolishness. Faith is not important....wow ?

Sorry GE for that last line but give me a break. Faith is vital.

Thank YOU G.E for taking the time and replying with questions and NOT false accusations and put downs...

Have a very blessed night

Jim

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Jim you cited (at least partially) Luke 6:38.   I pointed out that Luke 6:37-38 are one complete thought.  Those two verses are part of a complete thought that Jesus was making about condemning/judging, stating that the measure with which you judge it will be given back, pressed down, shaken together....  etc.

 

I am not judging any servants of God.   They are already under God's judgment for false teaching and leading many astray. 

 

You also cited the 30, 60 and 100 fold promises and I have shown that that also has nothing to do with money, but is talking about the Word of God. 

 

You held up two references of Scripture as dealing with money and I have shown that neither of your references have ANYTHING to do with money.

No you show what you believe......Yes you judged those servents when you say they take their money and leave them without. That is a bold lie. You have no proof other here say and false stuff on the net. Have you asked any of their partners ? No I did not think so. So before you start claiming servents of God are under His judgment you might want to get a check up on your self...

[Guest shiloh357]

Jim,

 

I used to live in Tulsa OK and in Broken Arrow.  I was inundated by that kind of Word of Faith teaching that you are promoting here.   I worked with Rhema (Kenneth Hagin ministries)  students and ORU Students for years.  I know what they believe and what they teach.

 

I have seen what happens when they discover that those teachings on money and other things are bogus and simply don't work.  

 

Did you not see Creflo Dollar have the audacity to tell everyone that Jesus wanted him to have a GS 6500 private plane and wanted 200,000 people to give him $300 apiece so he could have  that plane?  This is the man who says we are supposed to have "faith" and sow our seeds in order to get a harvest, but when HE needs something he asks everyone else to give him money.  If he really believed what he was preaching, he would do what he tells everyone else to do.  He would plant seeds and then wait for his harvest.   But no, he just starts begging everyone for money.    So much for "living by faith."   If he trusted God, he would plant his own seeds instead of appealing to his followers to  buy him a plane.

 

This stuff works for the big name "faith" preachers.  Your path to wealth always begins by making them rich first.   Funny how it never seems to work for the average guy, but these faith teachers drive Bentleys  and fly in private planes and wear Armani suits.

 

It is a total racket, and it preys on gullible people who can be exploited because they will grasp on to anything that will give them hope.   They are desperate and these teachers promise them wealth if they take the money that they need to pay for their utilities or groceries and 'seed' it into that ministry.  

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Jim,

 

I used to live in Tulsa OK and in Broken Arrow.  I was inundated by that kind of Word of Faith teaching that you are promoting here.   I worked with Rhema (Kenneth Hagin ministries)  students and ORU Students for years.  I know what they believe and what they teach.

 

I have seen what happens when they discover that those teachings on money and other things are bogus and simply don't work.  

 

Did you not see Creflo Dollar have the audacity to tell everyone that Jesus wanted him to have a GS 6500 private plane and wanted 200,000 people to give him $300 apiece so he could have  that plane?  This is the man who says we are supposed to have "faith" and sow our seeds in order to get a harvest, but when HE needs something he asks everyone else to give him money.  This stuff works for the big name "faith" preachers.

 

Your path to wealth always begins by making them rich first.   Funny how it never seems to work for the average guy, but these faith teachers drive Bentleys  and fly in private planes and wear Armani suits.

 

It is a total racket, and it preys on gullible people who can be exploited because they will grasp on to anything that will give them hope.   They are desperate and these teachers promise them wealth if they take the money that they need to pay for their utilities or groceries and 'seed' it into that ministry.

Shiloh thank you for sharing this with me.

I do not believe all of this..........

Have a wonderful day.

[Floatingaxe]

We should give tithes where we eat or are fed. Bringing meat to His store house,

We can plant seed or gifts above this......

 

Yep.

[Willa]

 

 

 

God wants gifts from a " cheerful giver" if one has to tithe grudgingly or tithe and let the family go without food ...this cannot be pleasing to the Father.

This would also depend on how much faith a person has towards God and tithing. When we give out of Love and Trust in God and His word and know that we know He will bless us back then we tithe even if it looks like we wont eat for God can do more through your tithe then we could through spending the money on food.

When we give because we feel forced to or to make a show of it or because we feel we have to do this or God will get us then our tithes will not produce the fruits in return that we had wanted.

The story of the widow woman and her few mites is an example of the first in which had total trust and faith in God and you know God moved on her behalf quickly. Speaking of which how about the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again....

Tithing and giving can be placed right up there with some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold.

How much Faith and trust do you have in God and His written word........think of it like this.....those who reaped 30 fold had about 30 fold faith and 70 fold doubt and unbelief......People tend to believe that their own faith is strong but continue to speak words of doubt and unbelief and fear and so forth. This works against your faith.

It is said through out His written word out of the abundance of the heart the mouth does speak and issues of life flow through our mouths. I said this because His word also teaches us we need to keep seed and the tithe watered or moistend and in good ground. Most people tend to think the ground is only about where you planted the tithe or seed but your heart and words matter much.

In short.........ones tithe can bring blessings or nothing or very little depending on the heart and faith of the one who Gives it. God said He would rebuke the devourer for our sake but if the tithe is not given correctly or out of a true heart then yea buy your food instead but for me and my house................We can simply NOT afford to NOT tithe. Every single penny that comes into our home gets tithed on.

Blessings

jim

We are not God. Nor are we like God--that was the temptation of the serpent in the garden. We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition.

Moreover, the TOS I subscribed to when I joined Worthy states that we believe Jesus was fully God and fully man while on this earth. So I can't subscribe to Word of Faith teaching and believe it is grievous error.

Occasionally God has replaced what I have given and to the penny; but most often He has simply supplied our needs, which is all I ask. He has instead made us better stewards, modified our desires, and helped us to find sales and even used items. We are content with what we have. 1 Tim. 6:6-10 teaches us to be content with food and clothing, not to have faith He will multiply back to us what we have given.

Explain why it is written in the word of God many times the phrase "even as" also you said this..........

((We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition. ))))

Dont need much faith ? Very little depends on our Faith ? So what would you do with Hebrews 11:6 ? Or what about Gen. 15:6 or even Romans 4:3 or even Galatians 3:6 ? We could go on and on about how your statement on faith is limited just by quoting scriptures.

Also why are you jumping out like this about word of faith teaching and stuff towards me ?

Have a great night but Faith is needed big time

Jim

 

We only need faith as a grain of mustard seed.  A little bit of faith in a great God.  It depends mostly on Him.  Very little depends on us.  I didn't say we don't need faith.  Walking in the Spirit is a walk of faith.  Without faith it is impossible to please God.  The just shall live by his faith.  By GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES;  it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast.  So even our faith is a gift from God.  It depends on the grace He gives us to exercise the faith He has given us.  You make it seem that God won't bless us if we don't have ENOUGH faith, or if we doubt.  I maintain that you can't pump up faith.  It is a gift. It is based on God's character.  

 

Whenever I hear people saying that a person has to have the right faith and the right heart I hear people criticizing others of not having enough faith or their hearts must not be right when they have hard times.  We should never second guess God.  He does all things well.   Read Job.  Many people believe with a good heart but still come upon hard times, lose jobs, have pay cuts.  God provides, but sometimes it is not the way we want or the amount we  think we need, or when we think we need it.  We are to be content with food and clothing.  

 

Most of the OT scriptures you used were written to the Jews under the old covenant and are out of context, as is the idea of keeping the ground moist and all.  I don't see the things promised that you claim.     

When I give to God I expect nothing in return.  But I do rely on Him to supply our needs apart from our giving.  I just believe it is wrong to give to get.

 

I was speaking about Word of Faith because you were pretty much repeating their beliefs, such as the positive confession bit, life and death are in the tongue, which grew out of the teaching of Hagen et all--- Copeland, Hagee and the people mentioned by others.  It spread through my church in the 70s and split it.  It is not sound teaching.

 

Oral Roberts came up with seed faith--I had the book.  He also sold prayer handkerchief for "love offerings" and made it a big business.    I don't have much respect for that teaching because it does put people into bondage to the law.  He wasn't much different than the others today.   The fact that you are afraid not to tithe shows the bondage you are in.    

I have many close friends who believe like you and I love them more than words can tell, but I firmly disagree.  Please forgive me for taking my frustrations with them out on you.  

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

God wants gifts from a " cheerful giver" if one has to tithe grudgingly or tithe and let the family go without food ...this cannot be pleasing to the Father.

This would also depend on how much faith a person has towards God and tithing. When we give out of Love and Trust in God and His word and know that we know He will bless us back then we tithe even if it looks like we wont eat for God can do more through your tithe then we could through spending the money on food.

When we give because we feel forced to or to make a show of it or because we feel we have to do this or God will get us then our tithes will not produce the fruits in return that we had wanted.

The story of the widow woman and her few mites is an example of the first in which had total trust and faith in God and you know God moved on her behalf quickly. Speaking of which how about the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again....

Tithing and giving can be placed right up there with some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold.

How much Faith and trust do you have in God and His written word........think of it like this.....those who reaped 30 fold had about 30 fold faith and 70 fold doubt and unbelief......People tend to believe that their own faith is strong but continue to speak words of doubt and unbelief and fear and so forth. This works against your faith.

It is said through out His written word out of the abundance of the heart the mouth does speak and issues of life flow through our mouths. I said this because His word also teaches us we need to keep seed and the tithe watered or moistend and in good ground. Most people tend to think the ground is only about where you planted the tithe or seed but your heart and words matter much.

In short.........ones tithe can bring blessings or nothing or very little depending on the heart and faith of the one who Gives it. God said He would rebuke the devourer for our sake but if the tithe is not given correctly or out of a true heart then yea buy your food instead but for me and my house................We can simply NOT afford to NOT tithe. Every single penny that comes into our home gets tithed on.

Blessings

jim

We are not God. Nor are we like God--that was the temptation of the serpent in the garden. We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition.

Moreover, the TOS I subscribed to when I joined Worthy states that we believe Jesus was fully God and fully man while on this earth. So I can't subscribe to Word of Faith teaching and believe it is grievous error.

Occasionally God has replaced what I have given and to the penny; but most often He has simply supplied our needs, which is all I ask. He has instead made us better stewards, modified our desires, and helped us to find sales and even used items. We are content with what we have. 1 Tim. 6:6-10 teaches us to be content with food and clothing, not to have faith He will multiply back to us what we have given.

Explain why it is written in the word of God many times the phrase "even as" also you said this..........

((We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition. ))))

Dont need much faith ? Very little depends on our Faith ? So what would you do with Hebrews 11:6 ? Or what about Gen. 15:6 or even Romans 4:3 or even Galatians 3:6 ? We could go on and on about how your statement on faith is limited just by quoting scriptures.

Also why are you jumping out like this about word of faith teaching and stuff towards me ?

Have a great night but Faith is needed big time

Jim

We only need faith as a grain of mustard seed. A little bit of faith in a great God. It depends mostly on Him. Very little depends on us. I didn't say we don't need faith. Walking in the Spirit is a walk of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The just shall live by his faith. By GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast. So even our faith is a gift from God. It depends on the grace He gives us to exercise the faith He has given us. You make it seem that God won't bless us if we don't have ENOUGH faith, or if we doubt. I maintain that you can't pump up faith. It is a gift. It is based on God's character.

Whenever I hear people saying that a person has to have the right faith and the right heart I hear people criticizing others of not having enough faith or their hearts must not be right when they have hard times. We should never second guess God. He does all things well. Read Job. Many people believe with a good heart but still come upon hard times, lose jobs, have pay cuts. God provides, but sometimes it is not the way we want or the amount we think we need, or when we think we need it. We are to be content with food and clothing.

Most of the OT scriptures you used were written to the Jews under the old covenant and are out of context, as is the idea of keeping the ground moist and all. I don't see the things promised that you claim.

When I give to God I expect nothing in return. But I do rely on Him to supply our needs apart from our giving. I just believe it is wrong to give to get.

I was speaking about Word of Faith because you were pretty much repeating their beliefs, such as the positive confession bit, life and death are in the tongue, which grew out of the teaching of Hagen et all--- Copeland, Hagee and the people mentioned by others. It spread through my church in the 70s and split it. It is not sound teaching.

Oral Roberts came up with seed faith--I had the book. He also sold prayer handkerchief for "love offerings" and made it a big business. I don't have much respect for that teaching because it does put people into bondage to the law. He wasn't much different than the others today. The fact that you are afraid not to tithe shows the bondage you are in.

I have many close friends who believe like you and I love them more than words can tell, but I firmly disagree. Please forgive me for taking my frustrations with them out on you.

We are all given a merasure of faith. Then we must build up our faith. Our faith does not depend on Him for we are to stir our selves up in Him. Actually teaching about doubt and unbelief is all through the N.T and is a killer of faith. It is not that I am afraid to not tithe..... That is simply not true. I am saying I can not aford not to tithe because I believe in the tithe that strongly. There is joy big time in tithing. ; )

Willa I never held anything against you !!

Blessings and have a wonderful day !!

Jim

Edited April 20, 2015 by Fish Catcher Jim

[Guest shiloh357]

And therein lies the problem with the prosperity message.   It all depends on MY faith, ultimately.   God only works in my life if I have enough faith.  It makes God the servant of my faith.  The prosperity message puts us in authority over God.  The prosperity message completely rejects the sovereignty of God.

 

When I lived in Tulsa, I was told that you have to, "put faith in your faith."   It was one of Kenneth Hagin's teaching on finances.   It means make your faith, the object of your faith.   Instead of having faith in God, have faith in your faith."    It is an egregious false teaching.

 

There is no NT requirement to tithe, and the Bible does not connect a blessing for tithing to the Church.    Tithing, in the Bible was to be done to the temple and there were three different tithes.  It was a commandment given ONLY to Israel and never to the Church.

[GoldenEagle]

 

Spend time with God seeking His desire for the tithe. The tithe is Holy to Him and is not just about throwing money in the bucket.

God showed us to even take comunion over our tithes before we give them.

When a parable or story is given in the bible it is there for a reason. The widow giving out of her want or need was shown for a reason vs the rich man giving some from his plenty. Who trusted God more ?

As far as A and B , well spend time seeking God and you will learn what kind of Heart it is He desires and what Kind of heart will see results that not only take care of you and your house but others as well. This is all so simple and yet many here are trying to claim I am speaking some forbidden talk that will shoot me down or something.

Also why do you look for scripture reference for things I said speaking about my house and family ? For me and my house ? Well that is just what is says....Me and my family or house hold...... ; )

I do not understand why some feel they need to tear things down if they do not line up with their personal beliefs. There are three in here that keep doing this and it is foolishness. Faith is not important....wow ?

Sorry GE for that last line but give me a break. Faith is vital.

Thank YOU G.E for taking the time and replying with questions and NOT false accusations and put downs...

Have a very blessed night

Jim

 

It’s interesting Jim because I came to the boards a few years back believing that God desired the tithe from all Christians. Why? The tithe is what I was taught. However through various discussions here, reading the Scriptures for myself in personal study,  and the guidance of the Holy Spirit I’ve found that the teaching of the modern tithe has very little evidence from a Biblical standpoint. This is my personal conviction.

Note: Texts in bold are what you said in this post.

A/B I guess when someone says “Trust in God and His word” I guess I’m curious as to what part of his Word (I’m assuming the Bible) is referenced is to trust.

As to the other points C, D, E, F, G you’ve made, when someone refers to Biblical passages I like to go back to read the passages to glean from others. Also when someone says “It is said throughout His written word” or “God said” I like to go back and read it for myself.

 

I guess I was having a hard time differentiating what 1. Jim was saying God was saying or a reference in the Bible and 2. what Jim was saying personally. So I was seeking clarification.

 

Particularly in the context of the passages surrounding the verse as we as Believers, myself included, tend to fall into the habit of proof texting our way through our beliefs. It also helps me understand other people’s perspectives and where they’re coming from by reading what passages in the Bible are being referenced. And yet as to the OP (Original Post) or article we cannot prove everything we say with Scripture. Yet there's a healthy balance I think between talking through Scripture and just talking.

Questions are for clarification and lead to further exchanges of ideas. Accusations are for the purpose of either attacking the person or the person’s beliefs. Accusations usually tend to shut people down. Wouldn’t you agree Jim?

God bless,

GE