Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

[GoldenEagle]

 

(Note: Texts in bold are what you said in this post.)

 

 

@Fish Catcher Jim

D. Looks like the reference here "the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again.... " is to 1 Kings 17:8-24. Is this correct? 

 

 

I’m not sure that this widow “Never knew lack again…” The text says that she had plenty until the day the Lord sent rain on the earth.1 Kings 17:14

¹⁴ For thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘The jar of flour shall not be spent, and the jug of oil shall not be empty, until the day that the Lord sends rain upon the earth.’”Seems from 1 Kings 18:1 that was at least 3 years. Not her entire lifetime. So I don’t think your statement “She never knew lack again…” is true according to the passage.1 Kings 18:1¹After many days the word of the Lord came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, “Go, show yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain upon the earth.”We do not know precisely how long the drought lasted. Now, it IS true that during the drought God provided for this Gentile widow. After that there's no evidence God providing the miracle for this widow.

Do you see that perspective?

God bless,

GE

When God speaks of sending the rain..............what does this mean ? What does this stand for ?

 

 

 

I don't need to try again.   You have nothing in the Scriptures that says she never experienced lack again.   Rain or no rain...     Rain can be a blessing or a curse, depending...

Rain in this context then............when God sends the rain it heals the land and crops grow and life begins to grow. Another words the time of lack is over.........

 

 

I would respectfully disagree with you here Jim. While rain meant relief from the drought we don't know what happened to the widow. It is safe to say that she was potentially positively affected by the rain. Crops begin to grow again. Did she never lack again? The text doesn't speak to that.

God bless,

GE

 

[Willa]

Jim, you are right that we can stir one another up in the most holy faith.  Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.  So we can read the Word and listen to sound teaching.  These are some of the reasons for attending church as welI.  Fellowship and the testimonies of others also help to build up our faith.

I agree that giving is both a blessing to the giver and a privilege.  

 

I disagree with the blessings and curses applying to Christians under the new covenant.  They were directed to the nation of Israel.  Israel had neglected the tithe of the land, letting it go fallow every 7th year, and for that reason she was sent into captivity in Babylon.  Malachi was a challenge to the people of Israel.  This all is part of the bondage to tithing that I referred to.  We are not under the law.  

 

Shiloh best expressed my thoughts about God's sovereignty.  We do not believe in faith healing.  We believe that God heals.  People who hang everything on their faith are not depending on God.  They are depending on their faith.  So they try to work up faith and are afraid to express a negative thought because it might destroy their faith.  So they practice positive confession.  This whole idea is wrong.  Often it is even lying to try to work up faith in this way.  Praying, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief is valid.  Then we are relying on God to grant us faith.  He is our Source.  

 

As I said, I believe it is wrong to give to get.  This is a part of having the right attitude.  A gift should not have strings attached.  We give freely.  Paul only prays a blessing "May He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, while you are enriched in everything for all liberality.  2 Cor. 9:10-11a NKJV  It is not a promise.  He claims that God is able to make all grace abound to you in V.8.  This is true.  Again it is His unmerited favor that is spoken of.  We don't earn or merit His blessing by our giving.  God does reward us whenever we obey Him.  It is part of our training.  We are rewarded with peace and joy.  

 

I am sorry that I have not been expressing myself clearly.  Thank you Shiloh for helping me out.  By disagreeing we are offering another perspective, often gained by our own trial and errors and the bad fruit we have seen as a result of bad teaching.  We are not trying to shoot one another down but to exhort and encourage one another to a better way.  

Blessings to you as well, brother.  

Willa

[GoldenEagle]

 

@Fish Catcher Jim

E. Looks like the reference here "some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold." is to Matthew 13:1-9 and Luke 8:4-15 Is this correct?

 

 

It is interesting that Jesus told Parables to the people to confuse them. See Luke 8:9-15 for an explanation of the parable you referenced. But besides that this parable and Jesus's own words clearly points to the seeds being the Gospel.

Luke 8:11

¹¹ Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Nothing to do with finances. So I would respectfully agree with how you are using this passage in reference to wealth.  The text simply doesn’t support the idea that we reap 30, 60, or 100 fold for what we “sow” financially.  

Can you see that perspective?

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem with sowing and reaping with regard to finances is three fold:   

 

#1   It started with Oral Roberts who before his death in an interview with Paul Crouch on TBN,  admitted that he didn't get it from the Bible.   He told of a farmer back in the 50s who had not been tithing on the profits he made from selling his crops.   He actually came to Oral Roberts' house in the middle of he night because he claimed he was under conviction and he handed Oral Roberts the tithe money he had withheld from the Lord and said to Roberts,  "this is not money;  it's seed."   That was where Oral Roberts got the idea  for "seed-faith" giving in regard to finances.

 

#2.   The other problem with sowing and reaping in regard to finances is that it makes no sense if prosperity is part of what was purchased at the cross.   If proseperity was purchased for us at the cross as the Word of Faith teachers claim, then it is a gift of grace and is ours freely.    Claiming that one must sow and reap and tithe in order to experience what is supposed to be a free gift of grace is theologically untenable and internally inconsistent.

 

#3.   The prosperity gospel is no gospel at all.  John Piper point out that It offers people what they already want as sinners.   You don't have to convert to faith in Jesus in order to want a bigger house, more money, a better car, etc.  Jesus did not suffer on the cross and die the worst death, he could die and bear the full weight of God's wrath  in order to fulfill your carnal lusts.

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

[ I would respectfully disagree with you here Jim. While rain meant relief from the drought we don't know what happened to the widow. It is safe to say that she was potentially positively affected by the rain. Crops begin to grow again. Did she never lack again? The text doesn't speak to that.

God bless,

GE

Hello Golden Eagle,

V 16 tells that no matter how much they used, there was always plenty left.

To me Golden Eagle this says that if she fed 100 people therte would be plenty the next day and if she fed just the 2 of them there would still be plenty for her. This shows us that God set into motion complete fullness over her lack or need or out of food.

So as you agreed she always had food or flour and oil which was important in those days while the prophet was there and it was also said until God sent the rain.

Back up to V 14.....I am using the NLT on this one because I like the way it says it.

For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says; There will always be plenty of flour and oil left in your containers until the time when the Lord sends the rain AND the crops grow again !

So it is simply not just until it rains........and the crops grow shows us that she was covered by the un-ending flour and oil until the land was prosperous once again.

Do you truly believe God would supply flour and oil and then send rain and allow the woman and her son to go back into lack and need after He sent the rain? What is the characteristics of our Loving God ? God does not bring a temporary fix or healing or provision. He does not simply put a bandaid on it but when He makes a situation right it is right brother.

Now something may be set to only last a period of time but then God will always have something better or something else in mind in order to take care of His own. However He does not deliver you out of a bondage or bad situation only to send you back into it.

Any way Golden Eagle this is all I wantd to say on this. Thaank you for your replies and questioning me for it always makes me dig deeper BECAUSE....to think one is always correct is simply showing how foolish they really are. ; )

Have a great and blessed day Golden Eagle

Jim

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually the original text only says that they had just the same amount each day.  Each day, there was just enough oil and just handful of flour for them to live on for the duration.   it's not like multiplied the food so that there was a full bottle of oil and a full container of flour. 

 

Furthermore, it is inappropriate to use this passage as a doctrine about giving.   God does not promise us that he would do for us what he does for this widow or anyone else.   This passage is simply a narrative, not a promise of prosperity.

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Actually the original text only says that they had just the same amount each day. Each day, there was just enough oil and just handful of flour for them to live on for the duration. it's not like multiplied the food so that there was a full bottle of oil and a full container of flour.

Furthermore, it is inappropriate to use this passage as a doctrine about giving. God does not promise us that he would do for us what he does for this widow or anyone else. This passage is simply a narrative, not a promise of prosperity.

Original text ? you brought in the multiplied part just as you always have to bring in your frustration of the so called prosperity bunch.

There seems to be as root of bitterness about these teachers and what they teach in your heart brother other wise you would not constantly hammer me with this stuff and insist this is what I am saying. It is not.

Pray for them and forgive them and love them but please stop allowing this aught keep bitterness in you. I am not being mean here but from day one you have come at me screaming faith this and false faith that and even put down on some of Gods servants.

I do not care how you want to believe Brother Shiloh and I may not agree with everything you say but I do not follow you around bashing what you believe or twisting it into what others have said that you do not like.

Peace Brother......

I do not hold any aught against you and I forgive you of anything and everything and love you in Christ my brother.

A wise man once told me. if you want to teach some one something or show them a different view you do not jump up and offend them from the start. Once you offend some one brother you are done teaching them anything.

God Bless you Brother Shiloh

Jim

Edited April 22, 2015 by Fish Catcher Jim

[Guest shiloh357]

The reason I have a problem with the Word of Faith Teachers is that what they preach as the "gospel"  is a false gospel and I have watched people throw away money in the name of "planting seed" for "harvests"  that never came.   These people believed and trusted these men and I watched as rent money was "seeded"  and then watch as the same people get evicted from their apartments because the apartment manager can't wait for the "harvest" to come in.   I have seen these guys dream up false visions claim that they are hearing directly from Jesus, which for discerning Christians, a major red flag.   Those people like Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Paula White and pretty much every other Word of Faith/Charismatic "faith" preacher live high on the hog and get rich off of the books and CDs they sell while the people they teach live in poverty.

 

I am not in need of any condescending "forgiveness" from you.   I am speaking the truth and I have nothing that I need to apologize for regarding these teachers.  They are not servants of God.  They wolves in sheep's clothing, they are the tares among the wheat who deceive many in the Church and you are promoting their doctrines and their teachings.    There is a huge lack of spiritual discernment in the Church, which is why their teachings are allowed to persist. 

 

They are the ones in need of repentance.  They are the ones who will day stand before Jesus' throne bragging about the signs and wonders they performed and Jesus will simply say, "Depart from me, workers of iniquity for I never knew you."

 

You don't hold anything against me because you have nothing to hold against me.  I have not wronged you.   I simply don't let your false teachings go unchallenged and uncorrected.

[LuftWaffle]

The reason I have a problem with the Word of Faith Teachers is that what they preach as the "gospel"  is a false gospel and I have watched people throw away money in the name of "planting seed" for "harvests"  that never came.   These people believed and trusted these men and I watched as rent money was "seeded"  and then watch as the same people get evicted from their apartments because the apartment manager can't wait for the "harvest" to come in.

 

Yes, and normally when the promised prosperity doesn't come, the "seeder" is blamed for not seeding enough, or not having the right kind of faith. So WoF preachers get rich and their promises becomes unfalsifiable.

If the promise comes true it's because seeding and tithing really works.

If the promise doesn't come true, it's your own fault because you didn't have sufficient faith.

 

Counting the hits and ignoring the misses is precisely the same principle that dodgy fortune tellers and psychics use to hustle victims.

 

I listened to Copan's wife (forgot her name) bragging on a radio show about their mansion and how God wants his people to have big houses, and she justified all that extravagance and greed by quoting verses referring to the House of Israel. I couldn't believe my ears, and I think if I was in that interview I would have probably punched her for such a shameless and blatant violation of scripture. As if God really cares about such vulgar materialism. I see no difference between them and those who turned the temple into the den of thieves, so I share Shiloh's disgust at the whole Word of Faith racket.

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

The reason I have a problem with the Word of Faith Teachers is that what they preach as the "gospel"  is a false gospel and I have watched people throw away money in the name of "planting seed" for "harvests"  that never came.   These people believed and trusted these men and I watched as rent money was "seeded"  and then watch as the same people get evicted from their apartments because the apartment manager can't wait for the "harvest" to come in.   I have seen these guys dream up false visions claim that they are hearing directly from Jesus, which for discerning Christians, a major red flag.   Those people like Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Paula White and pretty much every other Word of Faith/Charismatic "faith" preacher live high on the hog and get rich off of the books and CDs they sell while the people they teach live in poverty.

 

I am not in need of any condescending "forgiveness" from you.   I am speaking the truth and I have nothing that I need to apologize for regarding these teachers.  They are not servants of God.  They wolves in sheep's clothing, they are the tares among the wheat who deceive many in the Church and you are promoting their doctrines and their teachings.    There is a huge lack of spiritual discernment in the Church, which is why their teachings are allowed to persist. 

 

They are the ones in need of repentance.  They are the ones who will day stand before Jesus' throne bragging about the signs and wonders they performed and Jesus will simply say, "Depart from me, workers of iniquity for I never knew you."

 

You don't hold anything against me because you have nothing to hold against me.  I have not wronged you.   I simply don't let your false teachings go unchallenged and uncorrected.

You just proved my point. !! Your bitterness blinds you and you add to things being said....twisting words into how you ferel and not what is said. Of course you feel you do no wrong.......... any way be blessed and enjoy your life.