Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

[George]

What interesting about this discussion is how far its strayed from the original question.

Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

What the Bible does declare to the New Testament believer is this -- to be a CHEERFUL giver!

 

2Co 9:7  Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

First of all -- if you are not a CHEERFUL giver -- than you can't expect ANYTHING in return!  What's interesting is the word -- CHEERFUL!  It's the greek word -- hilaros

 

hil-ar-os'

From the same as G2436; propitious or merry (“hilarious”), that is, prompt or willing: - cheerful.

 

If you are not HILARIOUSLY giving -- then don't bother!  If you are GIVING because you're expecting something in return -- don't bother!

 

However, if you are giving because you want to fulfill the commandment of Jesus --

 

Act 20:32  And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Act 20:33  I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34  You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35  In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

 

Then I don't believe you can really OUTGIVE God!  I believe the TITHE is just a starting point of one's giving.  The blessings of God are fulfill not necessarily with a financial reward when you give -- but a spiritual reward which you cannot see!

 

If one is giving because he's being coerced into giving by a "guilt" or because of a promise of "financial" prosperity, then the motivation has totally been missed and thus is the error in giving.  However if you're motivation is to be a HILARIOUS giver -- then surely you will be blessed! 

 

Surely everyone can agree with that? 

[Floatingaxe]

What interesting about this discussion is how far its strayed from the original question.

Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

What the Bible does declare to the New Testament believer is this -- to be a CHEERFUL giver!

 

2Co 9:7  Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

First of all -- if you are not a CHEERFUL giver -- than you can't expect ANYTHING in return!  What's interesting is the word -- CHEERFUL!  It's the greek word -- hilaros

 

hil-ar-os'

From the same as G2436; propitious or merry (“hilarious”), that is, prompt or willing: - cheerful.

 

If you are not HILARIOUSLY giving -- then don't bother!  If you are GIVING because you're expecting something in return -- don't bother!

 

However, if you are giving because you want to fulfill the commandment of Jesus --

 

Act 20:32  And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Act 20:33  I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.

Act 20:34  You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.

Act 20:35  In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

 

Then I don't believe you can really OUTGIVE God!  I believe the TITHE is just a starting point of one's giving.  The blessings of God are fulfill not necessarily with a financial reward when you give -- but a spiritual reward which you cannot see!

 

If one is giving because he's being coerced into giving by a "guilt" or because of a promise of "financial" prosperity, then the motivation has totally been missed and thus is the error in giving.  However if you're motivation is to be a HILARIOUS giver -- then surely you will be blessed!

 

Surely everyone can agree with that? 

 

Amen!

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

The reason I have a problem with the Word of Faith Teachers is that what they preach as the "gospel"  is a false gospel and I have watched people throw away money in the name of "planting seed" for "harvests"  that never came.   These people believed and trusted these men and I watched as rent money was "seeded"  and then watch as the same people get evicted from their apartments because the apartment manager can't wait for the "harvest" to come in.   I have seen these guys dream up false visions claim that they are hearing directly from Jesus, which for discerning Christians, a major red flag.   Those people like Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Paula White and pretty much every other Word of Faith/Charismatic "faith" preacher live high on the hog and get rich off of the books and CDs they sell while the people they teach live in poverty.

 

I am not in need of any condescending "forgiveness" from you.   I am speaking the truth and I have nothing that I need to apologize for regarding these teachers.  They are not servants of God.  They wolves in sheep's clothing, they are the tares among the wheat who deceive many in the Church and you are promoting their doctrines and their teachings.    There is a huge lack of spiritual discernment in the Church, which is why their teachings are allowed to persist. 

 

They are the ones in need of repentance.  They are the ones who will day stand before Jesus' throne bragging about the signs and wonders they performed and Jesus will simply say, "Depart from me, workers of iniquity for I never knew you."

 

You don't hold anything against me because you have nothing to hold against me.  I have not wronged you.   I simply don't let your false teachings go unchallenged and uncorrected.

Brother Shiloh you judge others with your beliefs and this is not how we are taught to walk. We are taught to Love and forgive and holdno aught against any. So when I said O forgive you and hold no aught against your falsely accusing me and twisting what i say then it was done because it is a command of God. So it really does not matter how you feel about it fo i did what I am taught to do.

I have no clue what happened with your friend or who he insisted he was to give money too but it would seem he DID NOT PRAY ABOUT IT BEFORE GIVING THE RENT MONEY UP, other wise it would be on God and you would not be here using it against me or those minitries you are constantly bashing.

Take a read through 1John and see how many times we are told to not judge. We are to love the brethren even as He loves the brethren. Now one more question.........you claim these ministrie steal all the money of these poor helpless people and leave them with no food or homes etc. How many have you talked to ? Do the partners of these ministries agree with you ? I am just wondering for you speak for them.

No disrespect brother Shiloh

Blessings and Love in Christ

I love you my brother

Jim

[Guest]

The reason I have a problem with the Word of Faith Teachers is that what they preach as the "gospel"  is a false gospel and I have watched people throw away money in the name of "planting seed" for "harvests"  that never came.   These people believed and trusted these men and I watched as rent money was "seeded"  and then watch as the same people get evicted from their apartments because the apartment manager can't wait for the "harvest" to come in.   I have seen these guys dream up false visions claim that they are hearing directly from Jesus, which for discerning Christians, a major red flag.   Those people like Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Paula White and pretty much every other Word of Faith/Charismatic "faith" preacher live high on the hog and get rich off of the books and CDs they sell while the people they teach live in poverty.

 

<snip>

 

This, among many other things, is the kind of damage these folks do. I've met many (especially after the 2008 crash) who have been so angry and embittered toward God because of these WoF teachings that they tend to go ballastic when you mention Jesus or God to them. I had one guy actually throw a punch with no warning - but by God's grace there was no fight. It opened a door to speak to him, and I found out in the process that he'd lost everything . . . and the prosperity "church" he was a member of would do nothing to help. They just told him he needed more faith and left him on the street. That's not the only story like that I've heard either. Its sadly one of many.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jim,

 

I am not judging anyone.  These false teachers are already judged.   There are people whose lives has been ruined by following the lies and deceptions that come from people like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, Gloria Copeland and everyone else like them.    I am not bitter, but I lived in Tulsa, which is the headquarters of this Charismatic mess and I have watched what happens to the people when the light comes on and they realize this stuff is false doctrine, that seed faith giving is a sham and one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in the world.   God does not give financial blessings when we tithe or give otherwise.  There is no promised financial harvests tied to giving.    These men use people's desperation, and their need for hope as a mean of manipulation and exploitation.   They don't care a bit about the people who foolishly send them money.  

 

Yes, these people, had they prayed about it, would not have sent them rent money, but the problem is that when people are desperate and need help they will do just about anything and these deceivers tell them to "give now, don't wait"    They tell these vulnerable people that their harvest is just about on the horizon and that today is their "breakthrough."    They use the same emotionally manipulative tactics that people who are in high pressure sales jobs use to convince someone to make an immediate purchase.  They don't want you to think or to check your budget.   "Give NOW."  

 

If people did pray, if they had an ounce of discernment, if they knew how to listen to the Holy Spirit,  Kenneth Copeland would be selling shoes and Joyce Meyer would be working in a grocery store.     They are not servants of God, at least not the God of the Bible.     They serve money.  It all about getting people to send in more cash. 

 

And it's not just money that's the problem.   They all teach that we are little gods, and that Jesus went to hell to pay for our sins, and that our sins were not really paid for on the cross.    They teach that Jesus was "born again" in hell and that he only became the begotten Son of God at the resurrection.

 

They are heretics of the first order.   That's not a put down.   That is a theological fact.   They are heretics in the formal theological  understanding of the term.

 

So I am not being bitter.  I am being honest about what this teaching is and the people who teach it.  It is all lies and  these teachers have no business being teachers.  They have the most errant theology I have ever heard and they prosper because the body of Christ has little to no biblical or theological literacy.

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Jim,

 

I am not judging anyone.  These false teachers are already judged.   There are people whose lives has been ruined by following the lies and deceptions that come from people like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, Gloria Copeland and everyone else like them.    I am not bitter, but I lived in Tulsa, which is the headquarters of this Charismatic mess and I have watched what happens to the people when the light comes on and they realize this stuff is false doctrine, that seed faith giving is a sham and one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in the world.   God does not give financial blessings when we tithe or give otherwise.  There is no promised financial harvests tied to giving.    These men use people's desperation, and their need for hope as a mean of manipulation and exploitation.   They don't care a bit about the people who foolishly send them money.  

 

Yes, these people, had they prayed about it, would not have sent them rent money, but the problem is that when people are desperate and need help they will do just about anything and these deceivers tell them to "give now, don't wait"    They tell these vulnerable people that their harvest is just about on the horizon and that today is their "breakthrough."    They use the same emotionally manipulative tactics that people who are in high pressure sales jobs use to convince someone to make an immediate purchase.  They don't want you to think or to check your budget.   "Give NOW."  

 

If people did pray, if they had an ounce of discernment, if they knew how to listen to the Holy Spirit,  Kenneth Copeland would be selling shoes and Joyce Meyer would be working in a grocery store.     They are not servants of God, at least not the God of the Bible.     They serve money.  It all about getting people to send in more cash. 

 

And it's not just money that's the problem.   They all teach that we are little gods, and that Jesus went to hell to pay for our sins, and that our sins were not really paid for on the cross.    They teach that Jesus was "born again" in hell and that he only became the begotten Son of God at the resurrection.

 

They are heretics of the first order.   That's not a put down.   That is a theological fact.   They are heretics in the formal theological  understanding of the term.

 

So I am not being bitter.  I am being honest about what this teaching is and the people who teach it.  It is all lies and  these teachers have no business being teachers.  They have the most errant theology I have ever heard and they prosper because the body of Christ has little to no biblical or theological literacy.

Greetings and Blessings Brother Shiloh,

In this reply I want to point out several things and I HOPE you will take a second and rethink things before claiming I speak this or that. Please !!

I do understand that there are ministries that use motivation and getting your emotions all worked up in order to get you excited about sending finances their way...........This is why.........

Back in the 80's I fell into the make a vow unto the Lord and he will supply. So I did and vowed the 1,000 dollars and over time God did supply and I fulfilled this vow and then unto the next one.

Now then I worked out doors and my boots had wholes on the bottom and sides to the point that so much snow and ice built up inside I would have been better off bare foot.  I was told that when we receive blessings and it is not the exact amount you were looking for then it was vow money and to be given back to God. So I did over and over and over.

I was starting to get frustrated because  frost bite ain't no fun when you need to walk. lol  So as I was praying and getting frustrated with this ministry because as I slowed down on my vow payments I got letters that read like a collection agency letter. So I snapped and got kind of angry and went to God about my feet. 

He told me that He keeps giving me money for my boots but I keep giving Him my boot money back. I BOUGHT my new boots and had nothing more to do with this ministry.

NOW THEN this ministry is not on your hit list because it fell. Many others have fallen to the way side when God was not in them.  But those who get attacked and stay standing year after year seem to have one thing going for them......GOD !!

Brother Shiloh too many other ministries are getting bad mouthed because of what they teach and their words twisted to prove people points and many are running with this. You tube videos edited so only a partial of anything is heard and then able to be taken out of context.

Now then your reasons listed below kind of gave me a chuckle because what you claim is false is written in the word of God.........such as you say Jesus did not go into hell......

Not only did Jesus go to hell, He sank to the deepest, darkest part of it to suffer everything that was necessary on our behalf.

Scriptures verify it again and again . They tell us that He descended into the deep or the bottomless pit before He was brought up from the dead.

Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? ( that is to bring up Christ again from the dead )

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

Psalm 18 which does paint a pretty detailed prophetic picture of what Jesus went through between the cross and the throne, declares. "The sorrow of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me"

Brother Shiloh you also speak that saying Jesus was the first born again man is false.........what about this ? See Scripture below..... Would not first begotten of the dead say the first to come from death to life or kind of like saying we were dead in our sins but made new in Christ.......Jesus was the first man to ever escape Hell and the saints of old were not in Hell.

Revelation 1:5-6

KJV... And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the "first begotten of the dead", and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood

Again Brother Shiloh I only speak what is in His written word. I use KJV and a couple of others at my side to get a different view of something God shows me and I have used different Greek and Hebrew and such as well.

I really believe that any one including my self speaks any key words it directs you automatically to thinking there is that false teaching stuff and then you see nothing more.

Any way Brother Shiloh I thank you for your fellowship and friendship and as always looking forward to your replies.

Have a most blessed day and Love in Christ

Jim

[Guest shiloh357]

Jim,

 

My understanding of what these people teach is not based on edited YouTube videos.   I used to live and work in Tulsa Oklahoma.   I was there when the whole "vow" making thing was all the rage and Robert Tilton was one of the major Word of Faith teachers and I remember when his ministry was defended by the likes of Copeland and Hagin.  The reason Tilton's ministry was destroyed was that it was discovered that he didn't actually build the orphanages, he claimed his ministry was building.  He was a fraud and was exposed.

 

 I worked and lived around Word of Faith students at the famed "Rhema Bible Training Center,"   and ORU.   I got a steady dose of this stuff from people trying their best to convince me that this  Word of Faith movement's teachings were biblical.   I was given books and tapes and VHS recordings of sermons of various teachers.   At that time,  TL Osborn, Carleton Pearson, Charles Capps were still big names and Benny Hinn was making his first big splash.   People were making their financial vows and never getting the harvest they thought they were going to get.  They were promised the  30, 60 and 100 fold and it never, ever came.   I saw  a lot of disillusioned people who eventually come to their senses and reject those teachings because God is simply not obligated to do anything He has never promised.

 

So, I am coming at this from a position of intimate knowledge of this movement and what it teaches.  I understand it far better than you think  I do.    I also saw what a lot of people like you don't see.  I saw the side of those ministries that people don't often see.   Many people only know these ministries from the books an CDs that they buy.   They don't get to meet and be around the people who either work for them or have to deal with them.   These people are not what they appear to be on TV.  What people see on TV and on video is a façade.

 

At any rate...   They teach that Jesus went to Hell to pay for our sins, which evidently you believe as well.   The Bible never says that Jesus went to hell, much less that He went to lowest part of hell.   It certainly never says that Jesus paid for our sins in hell.    I have never found anyone that can show that Jesus went to hell, much less that our sins were paid for in Hell.  

 

Romans 10:7  is referring to the sea, not to hell.   It is not talking about descending into hell, but in to the depths of the sea.   Jesus did go and preach to spirits in prison, but Jesus did not suffer in Hell, as you claim.    Acts 2:31 is talking about sheol which is the grave, if you examine the Hebrew from which Peter was quoting, it was talking about Jesus not being left in the grave to decay.   It is not talking about the abode of those eternally condemned.   You also cite Psalm 18:5.    Where are you getting that Psalm 18:5 is prophecy about Jesus??   How do you arrive at that conclusion?  At any rate, the reference is again sheol and is talking about the grave.  The context defines sheol as the grave.

 

Here is the huge problem  with what you and these teachers are saying.    The Bible places the locus of our salvation at the cross.   The cross was where our sins for paid for.   If you look throughout the New Testament, it never claims that our sins were paid for on the cross.  I challenge you to find ONE place that claims our sins were paid for any other place than on the cross.  

 

Paul preached the cross.  He did not preach that Jesus went to hell.  Isa. 53: 5; Rom. 5:10-11, Gal. 6:12, 14, Eph. 2:16, Col.1: 20; 2:1-15, Hebrews 9:14-15  all place Jesus' payment of our sin debt on the cross.   When Jesus said it was finished, the Greek word tetalestai  means, "paid in full."   Jesus said on the cross that he had made full payment for our sins there on the cross.

 

So the notion that Jesus suffered in hell for our sins is a egregious false doctrine and should be rejected by all  Christians. 

 

Now to the false teaching that says that Jesus was born again...    You have cited Rev. 1:5-6...   The term "first begotten"  in the Greek is prototikos and means firstborn.   The term "firstborn"  doesn't mean that Jesus was "born"  at any point.   Prototikos is a word that means "preeminence"  It is a term of rank.   In other words   The same term is used in the same way in Col. 1:15, 18 to refer to Jesus has the prototikos or "head" of all creation.   "Firstborn"  means chief or ruler.   It is the one who has all authority or power.   In Revelation 1:5 and in Col. 1:15,18, it means that Jesus is the one who rules, who has all authority over the whole of the created order.

 

It does NOT mean that Jesus was "born again."      The term "born again"  is used in John 3  to denote being "born from above," or "Born of God."  To claim that Jesus was the first person to be "born again"  in that sense, would deny the deity of Jesus while He was on earth and it would also imply that Jesus died spiritually on the cross, which also be tantamount to denying Jesus' deity as well.   To do so would be heretical, in the formal sense of the word. 

 

The stuff you are being taught IS false doctrine.  I am not saying anything about these false teachings that can't be proven.   It is not about "key" words.   This is stuff is false from a very basic level.  It is bad theology that is based on some really sloppy exegesis and a basic lack of familiarity with sound, biblical doctrine

[Guest]

God is simply not obligated to do anything He has never promised.

 

 

Amen~!

 

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

 

God Is

 

Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. James 4:2-3

 

Good

 

And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. Psalms 50:15

 

~

 

PS: I Truly Believe In The Word Of Faith

 

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Romans 10:8

 

And The Heart Of Trust

 

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

 

Yes, I Do~!

 

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Jim,

 

My understanding of what these people teach is not based on edited YouTube videos.   I used to live and work in Tulsa Oklahoma.   I was there when the whole "vow" making thing was all the rage and Robert Tilton was one of the major Word of Faith teachers and I remember when his ministry was defended by the likes of Copeland and Hagin.  The reason Tilton's ministry was destroyed was that it was discovered that he didn't actually build the orphanages, he claimed his ministry was building.  He was a fraud and was exposed.

 

 I worked and lived around Word of Faith students at the famed "Rhema Bible Training Center,"   and ORU.   I got a steady dose of this stuff from people trying their best to convince me that this  Word of Faith movement's teachings were biblical.   I was given books and tapes and VHS recordings of sermons of various teachers.   At that time,  TL Osborn, Carleton Pearson, Charles Capps were still big names and Benny Hinn was making his first big splash.   People were making their financial vows and never getting the harvest they thought they were going to get.  They were promised the  30, 60 and 100 fold and it never, ever came.   I saw  a lot of disillusioned people who eventually come to their senses and reject those teachings because God is simply not obligated to do anything He has never promised.

 

So, I am coming at this from a position of intimate knowledge of this movement and what it teaches.  I understand it far better than you think  I do.    I also saw what a lot of people like you don't see.  I saw the side of those ministries that people don't often see.   Many people only know these ministries from the books an CDs that they buy.   They don't get to meet and be around the people who either work for them or have to deal with them.   These people are not what they appear to be on TV.  What people see on TV and on video is a façade.

 

At any rate...   They teach that Jesus went to Hell to pay for our sins, which evidently you believe as well.   The Bible never says that Jesus went to hell, much less that He went to lowest part of hell.   It certainly never says that Jesus paid for our sins in hell.    I have never found anyone that can show that Jesus went to hell, much less that our sins were paid for in Hell.  

 

Romans 10:7  is referring to the sea, not to hell.   It is not talking about descending into hell, but in to the depths of the sea.   Jesus did go and preach to spirits in prison, but Jesus did not suffer in Hell, as you claim.    Acts 2:31 is talking about sheol which is the grave, if you examine the Hebrew from which Peter was quoting, it was talking about Jesus not being left in the grave to decay.   It is not talking about the abode of those eternally condemned.   You also cite Psalm 18:5.    Where are you getting that Psalm 18:5 is prophecy about Jesus??   How do you arrive at that conclusion?  At any rate, the reference is again sheol and is talking about the grave.  The context defines sheol as the grave.

 

Here is the huge problem  with what you and these teachers are saying.    The Bible places the locus of our salvation at the cross.   The cross was where our sins for paid for.   If you look throughout the New Testament, it never claims that our sins were paid for on the cross.  I challenge you to find ONE place that claims our sins were paid for any other place than on the cross.  

 

Paul preached the cross.  He did not preach that Jesus went to hell.  Isa. 53: 5; Rom. 5:10-11, Gal. 6:12, 14, Eph. 2:16, Col.1: 20; 2:1-15, Hebrews 9:14-15  all place Jesus' payment of our sin debt on the cross.   When Jesus said it was finished, the Greek word tetalestai  means, "paid in full."   Jesus said on the cross that he had made full payment for our sins there on the cross.

 

So the notion that Jesus suffered in hell for our sins is a egregious false doctrine and should be rejected by all  Christians. 

 

Now to the false teaching that says that Jesus was born again...    You have cited Rev. 1:5-6...   The term "first begotten"  in the Greek is prototikos and means firstborn.   The term "firstborn"  doesn't mean that Jesus was "born"  at any point.   Prototikos is a word that means "preeminence"  It is a term of rank.   In other words   The same term is used in the same way in Col. 1:15, 18 to refer to Jesus has the prototikos or "head" of all creation.   "Firstborn"  means chief or ruler.   It is the one who has all authority or power.   In Revelation 1:5 and in Col. 1:15,18, it means that Jesus is the one who rules, who has all authority over the whole of the created order.

 

It does NOT mean that Jesus was "born again."      The term "born again"  is used in John 3  to denote being "born from above," or "Born of God."  To claim that Jesus was the first person to be "born again"  in that sense, would deny the deity of Jesus while He was on earth and it would also imply that Jesus died spiritually on the cross, which also be tantamount to denying Jesus' deity as well.   To do so would be heretical, in the formal sense of the word. 

 

The stuff you are being taught IS false doctrine.  I am not saying anything about these false teachings that can't be proven.   It is not about "key" words.   This is stuff is false from a very basic level.  It is bad theology that is based on some really sloppy exegesis and a basic lack of familiarity with sound, biblical doctrine

So when I am reading in my King James bible and it says things like hell I must know it is the sea ? So the psalms needs to be corrected as well ? What will be next ?

Have a wonderful day

[Guest Butero]

There is something I saw in this thread, and I have seen this kind of teaching in other places I want to comment on.  That is motive.  I realize in an ideal world, we should do everything we do because we love God, but is it really so awful to live right because God's Word says to?  If a person gives tithes because of fear and another gives tithes because of love for God, the money is going to still spend the same.  The work of the ministry is getting done.  Lets look at something else.  Lets ask the question of adultery.  In an ideal world, you might say a man should never commit adultery because he loves God and he loves his wife, but is it really so wrong that he doesn't cheat because God says, "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery?"  All of this motive stuff sounds super spiritual, but I just don't agree with it.  I don't think it matters why you live right, so long as you are trusting in Christ and you recognize the law alone can't save you.  If fear is what it takes, serve the Lord with fear and trembling.  If love is all it takes, by all means, serve the Lord because you love him.  I think people are misinterpreting the intent of Paul's teachings about being under the law.  He was clearly speaking of people who claim your initial salvation experience isn't complete till you are circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses, not people who obey God's laws because he said something is right or wrong.