Once Saved always Saved?

[Mark777]

It is not clear! These verses are talking about rewards and conditions. "The Prize"! The prize is given at the end of a race. It cannot be salvation - that is given at the beginning and is said to be eternal - incorruptible!!

Edited May 28, 2006 by Mark777

[Mark777]

st. Worm: " ...such a blessed state may be forfeited and lost."

Jesus: " And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40.

[st. Worm]

mark777 quote:

"The Prize"! The prize is given at the end of a race. It cannot be salvation - that is given at the beginning and is said to be eternal - incorruptible!!

sw:

Dear soul, what prize do you think they are speaking of, a new automobile or a set of steak knives? You really must do better than this if you want me to take you seriously. :-)

[st. Worm]

Mark777 quote:

st. Worm: " ...such a blessed state may be forfeited and lost."

Jesus: " And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40.

SW:

Nothing contradictory here at all mark. God has his elect yet sinners are capable of rejecting grace. Just as Jesus said, salvation is for those who believeth on him, not for those who believe for a little while and then fall away.

[Guest jckduboise]

I can't believe how much division there is on God's word. It is even much harder to believe that so many people are accepting such division. Remember, Christ said that a house divided CANNOT stand. The church is the house of god and it is very much divided.

This division is justified by people allowing various interpretations of scriptures that greatly wrest upon the salvation of our souls.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scritpures came from God and are our instructions in righteousness. Yet how can I be instructed correctly if I keep hearing various interpretations of what I need to do to be saved.

Many people like to teach that all I have to do is "Believe" because Christ did everything on the cross for me and I don't have to do anything because if I do then I am relying on myself and trying to work myself to heaven.

What people are failing to do is correctly define what "Works" are speaking of in each scripture that it is mentioned in.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This scripture does stand true. We are NOT saved by works of a law. The law was never intended to save us because it only serves the purpose of exposing what a sin is.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What is being missed here is that we are still commanded to obey the law of Christ and we are justified by our obedience to Christ.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Much of the "Christian" faith today teaches that "Faith" is the only thing that we need to do to get to heaven and anything outside of that is man trying to work their way to heaven. I say that people who believe and make comments like this are very unlearned and unskilled in the word of God.

If works are not needed nor do they save us then why do we have scriptures like these:

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You see, while many people here try to leave the works part out I would rather believe in the scriptures and keep the two together.

So, what are our "Works" then that justify us and how do we work out our salvation? Our works are nothing more than our obedience to the law of Christ. The law of Christ is the New Testement.

Look at this verse -

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The works that we keep before God are the commandments we obey that he established. Now we have to define what the commandements of God are.

So, in essence what is being said is that our obedience to God won't save us. This is complete contradiction to the scriptures where it is said that Christ is the author to eternal salvation to all those who OBEY him.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The works we are told to keep in various scriptures are the works of our obedience to the Gospel.

The first three chapters in Revelations is speaking of 7 churches that were half hearted and were not doing the works they were commanded to do which is following, living, and obeying the gospel of Christ. They were commanded to repent or Christ would take away their candlesticks which gives them the recognition by God as being a true church.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

If works don't play and important part in our lives as Christains then why are we to be judged by our works? This isn't just for rewards. That answer is a cop out to the truth that we are called to obedience and we will be judged by our obedience. If we obey then we warrant heave, if we don't then all we have to look forward to is hell.

Where we lose our salvation is when we don't obey the gospel. I can believe all I want but if I don't obey the gospel that Christ gave us the I don't have God.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Once again, I can believe in God all I want but if I am not living according to the doctrine of Christ I don't have God. You can't get any painer than that.

I have read many people justufy away falling from grace by stating that they were not Christians anyway who fell away. That is another cop out to believe in a system that doens't preach repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

The gospel commands repentance from sin. As Christians we are still repenting from our sins as we study the word of God and learn or what they are. It is up to me to repent. many say that the works that are done are of God and if I try to do anything of myself then I am trusting in myself to get to heaven. That is another cop out.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

These scriptures say that I am the one that is supposed to do this.

I would be so bold to say that there are many people that fight against works and obedience to the gospel and rest on a "Faith" only salvation because they don't read nor study their bibles.

As far as a Christian falling away -

Hebrews 10:29-31 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

How can I trodden under foot the Son Of God if I was never saved?

People mention the saved, lost and then saved, lot doctrine. If people would actually study their bibles instead of defending their belief they would see that it is not that way.

We are all promised salvation and it is free to everybody because we have all sinned and come short of the glory. Through the scriptures we are taught that through the blood of Christ we recieve the forgivenss of sins and we put on Christ and the Holy Spirit by which we are sealed unto the day of redemption. Where people leave off is that we are actually commanded to live and follow the law of Christ and if we don't we don't have God. This is where we can lose that salvation that we were given.

When a doctrine of faith/grace only with OSAS is taught then a generation of "Christians" is brought up believing that they can still hold onto their sins because not only do we not have to repent (works) but also I can't lose my salvation no matter what I do anyway. I know this because my brother belongs to a very large well know denomination that teaches that.

Remember people, we are called to repentance and obedience.

Another point I wanted to bring out is that a couple of these posts mention that when we get to heave we will find out what is right, or we can agree to disagree, or that we can entertain different interpretations. But what do the scriptures say?

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Where is truth amongst contradicting interpretations?

These scriptures describe what the denominational world has come to:

Isaiah 30:8-10 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

A doctrine of fatih/grace only and not of works is an easy doctrine to follow. People today want a religion that has them to believe they don't have to repent of their sins nor actually live the doctrine of Christ.

How can God call me a faithful servant if I don't obey? Now can I make it into heaven if I still have all of my sins on me that I have not repented of?

Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

If you don't repent of your sins you will not make it into heaven whether you are a Christian of not.

The reason why Christians fall away or turn their backs on God and Christianity is because of sins they keep in their lives. King Solomon left God because his heart went after the idols of his wives. Here we see another.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

How many people are no longer walking with god because they chose to hold onto sins in thier lives? I have seen people quit Christianity over jobs, spouses, fornication, and many other things. they chose to live in their sins rather than to obey God.

Demas was a Christian because he was mentioned a few times in the bible. He left God because he would rather hold onto whatever sin that was in the present world.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

We are in the latter times and there are many who do leave the faith. Those who leave the faith are not abiding in the doctrine and have not God. That is not hard to understand.

There is so much on this subject that I can keep going on and on about it. The bible and it's warning were written for a purpose. If I don't ready and study I won't know the truth.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I can't rightly divid the word of truth if I don't study. And if I am studying then why is there so much division amongst interpretations? Remember, ALL of the scriptures have to be used in order for them to work. I can't use one to discredit another and that is what is happening.

this deserves a standing "O"..bravo..

[Mark777]

Cardcaptor,

I want to completely answer your post. I am busy at the moment and your post was long. Give a little time until tonight and look for my response. I would be interested in what you would have to say about my comments.

Be patient.

Mark

[Mark777]

edit: Sorry, I do not know why some parts were duplicated.

I will get to the last half of the post later tonight.

1 John 3:9

Edited May 28, 2006 by Mark777

[Guest Daave]

It is suprising to find that is being said in an "Either" "Or" fashion when like with so many other issues in following Christ, this is really a, both are true at the same time situation?

We don't seem to have great difficulty accepting that Jesus is both God and Man do we? We can't really explain it well, but because it has been revield to us in the scriptures, we are willing to accept what God's Word has to say concerning Jesus and who he is.

The warnings are valid and must be heeded. Our security is valid and must be accepted.

We have a new nature because we have the Holy Spirit residing in us, yet we experiece conflict, and are called upon to yeald to our new nature when temptations arise.

This should not be this difficult.

Daave

[Mark777]

1 John 3:9

[Mark777]

And that is why I am just going to say that I have repeated myself to much. I have not really had anyone respond to my argument or the verses that I have used so unless there is any questions or unless there is anything new to say - I will listen for awhile.

I would like to say that having a difference of opinion isn't a bad thing and talking about it isn't bad either. I think we all have generally accepted Christ so we are together in that respect.

We are not divided in Christ. How we understand the details may be a reflection of our own walk with God.

Mark