Once Saved always Saved?

[Mark777]

I thought you would rather not answer actual Scripture. I knew in the back of my head you were afiliated with the Lutherans - which btw - has completely removed themselves from any original intent of Luther himself in many things. I have a very dear friend who is Lutheran and he has furished me with some amazing literature from that church. I was shocked by the direction the church had taken. I was misinformed and it blew me away. The point still stands -Luther absolutely believed salvation cannot be lost. You have added your own bias to Luther's works.

It is telling that you decided to quote a lutheran minister instead of answering the Scriptural argument that I offered. You did not because you cannot. Eternal means eternal - not losing anything is NOT LOSING ANYTHING - being sealed unto the day of redemption - means precisely that - incorruptible means you cannot corrupt it - a free gift means it is free, no conditions...........

Yes, I was rather silly. Good day to you too..............

Mark

Edited June 3, 2006 by Mark777

[Mark777]

From the Smalcald articles: Articles of Faith by Martin Luther

XIII. How One is Justified before God, and of Good Works.

What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.

And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ's sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1, 31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.

(More to follow....)

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote:

"I will just add that Lutheran theologians disagree with your evaluation and agree that Luther correctly held the Scriptural belief that under certain circumstances a child of God can sin to the extent that he or she can lose there right-standing before the Eternal."

SW:

I am open to be proven wrong, but I am not aware of anything in the Lutheran Confessions that says sin will result in a loss of salvation. The real issue is that rejection of faith followed by unbelief will result in loss of salvation. If sin causes loss of salvation then Heaven will be empty except for God.

[Smalcald]

Exactly, I think we are all talking about a loss of faith here correct? Only unbelief condemns us, not sin.

Certainly unbelief will produce an attitude that is of a carnal mind, an unwillingness to see the need for repentance of sin, why would one repent of something when one does not believe it is really wrong or believe there is a God that would care if they sin, or a redeemer to save them from the wrath of that God? It would all simply be foolish to an unbeliever, or it would simply be an act for a hypocrite.

I have a very dear friend who is Lutheran and he has furished me with some amazing literature from that church. I was shocked by the direction the church had taken. I was misinformed and it blew me away.

Hi Mark,

Just as an aside, I am affiliated with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Unfortunately you may be exactly correct if your friend is a member of the largest Lutheran group the ELCA. Most of us also consider them to have left any semblance of what Luther taught. They keep the outer cloak of it, but when you look at what they actually believe it all falls apart. Which is what really annoys the rest of us Lutherans.

Peace.

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote:

"Does

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote:

Why don

[Mark777]

Smalcald: "Just as an aside, I am affiliated with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Unfortunately you may be exactly correct if your friend is a member of the largest Lutheran group the ELCA. Most of us also consider them to have left any semblance of what Luther taught. They keep the outer cloak of it, but when you look at what they actually believe it all falls apart. Which is what really annoys the rest of us Lutherans."

Mark777: I stand corrected. Sorry for the mistake. Could you explain a little more to me the difference historically? I would like to read something on it. could you suggest something?

Mark

[Mark777]

Just in case it was missed by HE:

Martin Luther: "God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it. And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ's sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ."

Mark

[Mark777]

There we go, arguing theologians! I would rather talk about Scripture. I would honestly like to get my questions answered biblically.

OK, I accepted Christ - He promised that if I did so He would give me eternal everlasting life and I would never perish. Christ said that nothing could take me away from Him or the Father. He not only promised me but every other person that accepted Him - He said He would lose not one of us. Paul told me that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - Peter, dear Peter, told me that when I was born again I was born of incorruptoble imperishable seed - Paul told me my salvation was a free gift (That cannot have conditions). He also told me that I am not my own work but God's workmanship and that it isn't I who live but Christ lives in me. If these things are not so - God is a liar. Not only did God tell us these things repeatedly but He had His representatives travel world wide with His word telling everyone these thing. And here someone comes and says, "Well, there are exceptions....." Explain that without LOLing!

Mark

Edited June 4, 2006 by Mark777

[st. Worm]

Horizoneast, as other posters have pointed out you are dishonest intellectually. That is just what you do here. However I will continue this charade just to prove that point. When one speaks about Lutheran theology (you said Lutheran theologians which is obviously a derivation of that term), one must talk about the Book of Concord, or the works that make up the Lutheran Confessions or beliefs that Lutherans confess, their Confession, if you will. By saying what you said you clearly implied that Lutheran theology indicates that sinning will bring loss of salvation. I stated that I was not aware of that teaching in Lutheran theology meaning the Lutheran Confession(s) but invited you to show it to me. Are you now clear on what I was saying or do you wish to continue to play the game of inviting me to repeat my question so you can then play bait and switch once again. You may be absolutely correct in your assertion but we will never know if you keep playing games.

sw