Once Saved always Saved?

[st. Worm]

quote:

So instead of "practice" sin, it could be translated to one who "covets" sin or "extorts" sins.

So it doesn't necessarily mean one that commits a sin over and over but rather one who loves their sin.

SW:

In context, it most likely means a complete lack of repentance regarding sin.

[Giaour]

Totally agree Butero

[Mark777]

Butero,

You are in our prayers for fast healing.

Mark

[Arthur Durnan]

And, too, Paul says there's NO BEING "RE-SAVED" if we willfully sin! "It is IMPOSSIBLE to renew......." Wow! Powerful declaration, yes? And I LOVE your emphasis on by-passing EVERLASTING life by talking about believing! We believe AND ACCEPT....and we RECEIVE EVERLASTING life, never "temporal" life!! And, O, by the way, WHERE is your Bible answer re that vital verse in your Bible underscoring TEMPORAL (not EVERLASTING) life? You failed to give us that important truth.....why? GRRRRRR is essentially a very dead duck. "Temporal" EVERLasting life" is one weird bird. It won't fly.

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for EVERLASTING (never once "temporal") life!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

In the same passage, the writer exemplifies the people to whom he refers by quoting from deuteronomy:

Deut 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock,

Even our enemies themselves being judges.

32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom

And of the fields of Gomorrah;

Their grapes are grapes of gall,

Their clusters are bitter.

33 Their wine is the poison of serpents,

And the cruel venom of cobras.

34 'Is this not laid up in store with Me,

Sealed up among My treasures?

35 Vengeance is Mine, and recompense;

Their foot shall slip in due time;

For the day of their calamity is at hand,

And the things to come hasten upon them.

36 "For the Lord will judge His people

And have compassion on His servants,

When He sees that their power is gone,

And there is no one remaining, bond or free.'

In this passage, we can see a great parallel to the issue that the writer to the Hebrews is addressing in chapters 9 and 10.

The problem faced is one of Jews who having heard the truth of the sacrifice of Christ continue offering old covenant sacrifices (animal sacifice). In the face of the truth, this in itself is a wilful sin, but more than that it does not cover any sins that they commit, wilful or otherwise. In deuteronomy the passage indicates the presence of the unrighteous among the righteous (unsaved among the saved) some of them are even called judges (pharisees - who offer animal sacrifice). The passage also declares that their foot shall slip in time, which paints a bold picture of a falling away, perhaps analogous of those who show their true colours when persecuted for Christ. In contrast the passage declares that he will have compassion on his servants. Again this highlights the difference between those who claim to be Christ's people and those who are trully servants. When you are bought with the blood you are his and securely so, if you are free to walk at any time you are a visitor and your foot may slip at any time, be warned.

[Smalcald]

We are warned by inspired writers that those Christians who choose to

[Mark777]

No damage! The Holy Spirit is there to correct every problem. The very thing you guys do not consider at all is that we are indwelt by God Himself. He has recreated us making us new with a new nature. That nature never wants to sin it fights the flesh. God knows the hearts of all people. We will see if these examples you raise are examples of trueChristians or not. The Bible mentions believers that will be punished for sin by fire but they themselves will survive. I have brought this up many times. The Christian walk is a process of growth. All Christians have sin in their life but what they do not have is the enjoyment of it. The spirit and our new nature fight against sin. It isn't the same as it was before we were saved. Christ lives in us. If you think that the flesh can out do the forces of God - yo be crazy, man.

Mark

[Ovedya]

Ovedya, I do think you have an interesting argument, but let me ask you this. If this passage means as you say, looking at verse 26 which says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," wouldn't that mean that people were only accountable for sins after they received the knowledge of the truth, and until then, animal sacrifices for sins would be acceptable? If I am understanding you correctly, your contention is that the writer is warning people against a return to the practices of Judaism and saying that if they sin, there is no atonement anymore in bulls and goats, yet verse 26 says "For if we sin wilfully AFTER WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." I hope you understand my question. It was a little hard to relate. In other words, if you sin wilfully before you receive the knowledge of the truth, you would not be accountable.

No. The whole point is that the blood of cows and goats is no longer effectual because Christ has satisfied the payment for once and for all. The "willful sin" in verses 26 is directy related to the abandoning of the gathering together in prayer. That is the context. So therefore, these Jews received the knowledge of the truth - that Christ shed His blood for the remission of sins - then willfully fell back to the practices of Judaism, under which there remains no sacrifice for sins. The writer is trying to get those that had fallen back to understand that the sacrifices under the law were no longer effectual. In fact, in verse 28 he uses the abandoning of the Law of Moses as an example and contrasts it with the truth of the New Way: "By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the coventnat by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (v. 29)

Hello Ovedya, Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. When I read your original recap of the chapter, I agreed that it is speaking about the things you said it was, first the system of sacrifice under the law, and today, how we are forgiven by faith in Jesus. Here is the difference. We both believe he is showing differences, but I believe in the latter part, he is giving warnings to those under grace. The warning is, don't think that because you are no longer under a system of animal sacrifices and the Law of Moses, that you have a license to sin. Verses 26 through 31 are warning us that if we commit wilful sins today, the blood sacrifice that originally washed our sins away are not covering our new sins. We now have spot on our spiritual garments. It goes on to show how people were treated that despised Moses' law, and how much worse it will be yet for those who make light of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. That's a strong statement in verse 31, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Notice what is says in 2 Peter 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment deliverered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It would be better to go to heaven, even if we die a pre-mature death or suffer chastisement for our sins in this life, so the OSAS doctrine makes no sense in light of these scriptures.

I could not begin to estimate how many times I've heard christians use Hebrews 10:25 as support for contending that one should attend church services on Sunday. They cite this verse and say, "See, this says it's a sin to not go to church." But actually the verses says no such thing. The verses,and the ones surrpounding this verse, deal with a specific issue and a specific problem related to the Hebrew believers. So using the surrounding verses in application to scenarios that don't relate just doesn't work.

Now, if you had a situation where a pagan was saved and then went back to paganism, or a Mormon was saved and then went back to Mormonism, then these verses would apply in principal, because the basic issue involved is the rejection of Christ's supreme sacrifice and the complete abandoning of the old way. You cannot use these verses to contend against OSAS becasue they don't apply to the issue. They don't even address the issue, in fact.

As far as 2 Pet. 2:20-22 are concerned, again, there is no relavence to OSAS. From verse 10-22 Peter was writing about false teachers. I believe that there is a dispendsational punishment involved (That is not purgatory, mind you) for those who have fallen to the lusts of the world and, through deception, mislead other believers. For example, I would never begin to judge the salavtion of any of the false teachers of TBN, but I shudder to think of the kind of punishment they will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[Mark777]

You know Peter was considered clean by Christ but he had sin. When we become saved, that doesn't mean that all sin issues have been fixed. God works with a believer and grows the fruit of the Spirit and prunes out the fruit of the flesh. It is a process. Smalcald mentioned John Hagee. The man isn't dead yet. God's timing is his own. There might be a perfect time and place for God to correct him - like the rest of us. We have more than the most common sin within us. Our very substance is sinful. When we are saved we do not become perfect beings. Our sin has been forgiven. But that is not all. The gentle Holy Spirit comes and lives within us and empowers us to fight the good fight. God wants our efforts. Exercise is the best road to growth.

Mark

[Mark777]

Horizion,

No need for the insult, I have read your repsonse to this passage over and over. It has been answered over and over. You have a very low opinion of the Holy Spirit's abilities. You do not account for His presence. What, is He just standing around? I don't think so........

Mark