Once Saved always Saved?

[st. Worm]

mark777 quote:

"The whole Bible is a warning to nonbelievers! We are all nonbelievers. It is God who calls us and saves us. It is He who gives "Tus the ability to walk in His truth. We are nothing."

sw:

mark, I do not disagree about our depraved state and inability to believe as natural sinners. However, the passages in question are clearly to believers. We are only non-believers until God changes us through regeneration. When verses warn about falling away, what else could they be talking about but believers falling away by rejecting the gift of faith? Unbelievers would not be falling away since they have nothing to fall away from in their state of unbelief. As I said your hermeneutic requires you to explain away those verses. But, there is no need to try and fit a square peg in a round whole by denying what those passages are saying. We must accept them at face value as clear warnings. To say "the whole Bible is a warning to unbelievers" does not really address the issue here. If that were really the case, then believers would have no need of the Bible and could discard it.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

The letters are to the church body. I doubt the apostles were stupid and arrogant ebough to think that they were addressing a church consisting entirely of the saved. To the contrary, Paul for one was extremely conserened that many of the churches showed evidence of not being saved. Jews turning back to sacrifice, gentiles turning to sexual misconduct. If anything its more likely that the writers were more concerned with those in the church who were not yet saved...as the shepherd leaves the 99. You can be in the church and not of it, as we are all very well aware.

[st. Worm]

new pilgrim:

"If anything its more likely that the writers were more concerned with those in the church who were not yet saved...as the shepherd leaves the 99. You can be in the church and not of it, as we are all very well aware."

sw:

No one is denying that the church contains many non-elect. However, I see nothing in those verses that warn about falling away that indicate Paul is writing only to unbelievers. In fact, the passages appear specifically addressed to those with faith.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[Guest jckduboise]

new pilgrim:

"If anything its more likely that the writers were more concerned with those in the church who were not yet saved...as the shepherd leaves the 99. You can be in the church and not of it, as we are all very well aware."

sw:

No one is denying that the church contains many non-elect. However, I see nothing in those verses that warn about falling away that indicate Paul is writing only to unbelievers. In fact, the passages appear specifically addressed to those with faith.

NP and 777,

It is pretty hard to "fall away" from salvation if a person is a "non-believer" and unsaved...how can a person fall away if they are not yet saved?

[tah]

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

man has been without excuse since the beginning..

many have seen and fallen away....

they had not been "born again"...

Did you see pilgrims verse...

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[Guest jckduboise]

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

man has been without excuse since the beginning..

many have seen and fallen away....

they had not been "born again"...

Did you see pilgrims verse...

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Absolutely and what it is, is an alternative to 6:4-8...As is all our decisions in life we have choices and God has always informed us of them.....

What I see happening with this is that people are afraid to accept that change is necessary and salvation is dependant on it...we cannot take the soft without learning the hard.....

[st. Worm]

Quote:

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

SW:

I saw it but it does not invalidate the warning that preceded it. As I have noted, both verses of comfort and verses of warning are from God. One does not negate the other. Believers are warned to cling to Christ but also are comforted that their salvation is secure in Him at the times when they fear all is lost. There is nothing contradictory there and the warnings and comforts are for believers.

[st. Worm]

Quote;

"What I see happening with this is that people are afraid to accept that change is necessary and salvation is dependant on it..."

sw:

Although we are allied in general in this thread Jackie I have to disagree with this. This reasoning creates a works and performance based grace. Our salvation is never dependent on what we do. If that were the case, we would lose it immediately. Our salvation is completely dependent on Christ and not ourselves.

[Guest jckduboise]

Quote;

"What I see happening with this is that people are afraid to accept that change is necessary and salvation is dependant on it..."

sw:

Although we are allied in general in this thread Jackie I have to disagree with this. This reasoning creates a works and performance based grace. Our salvation is never dependent on what we do. If that were the case, we would lose it immediately. Our salvation is completely dependent on Christ and not ourselves.

Let me put this another way...before I came into a relationship with the Lord I had no desire to be obedient to the things He asked of me...Today I have the desire, why because I love Him and have Reverence for the All Mighty......

Because I revere the Father I am going to seek to obey..this does not make my position of one doing good works..we are SUPPOSED to obey...it is one a position of OBEDIENCE.