7 seals

[Kan]

 

That statement is baseless.  It is spawned of necessity to fit your narrative.  The reality is that the last days are a time of deception and apostasy.  There are many scriptures to support that including the strong delusion that God sends to those who choose sin over truth in 2 Thess 2.  There is zero support for some "great revival" that will make up the great multitude that are martyred.  That's just another in a long list of fabrications.

 

 

 

Based on history, what BoPeep put forward about people being saved in troubled times is very true, and I don't see how this cannot apply to the future, unless the time for salvation is over.

[missmuffet]

 

 

If you study revelations, people also get saved during the tribulation, that is only if there was a rapture. I will look up scripture tomorrow. Otherwise it is talking about the saints who go thru it.

Yes,there will be a huge harvest of unbelievers that will come to Christ during the tribulation.Because the Holy Spirit will still be on earth.

 

 

That statement is baseless.  It is spawned of necessity to fit your narrative.  The reality is that the last days are a time of deception and apostasy.  There are many scriptures to support that including the strong delusion that God sends to those who choose sin over truth in 2 Thess 2.  There is zero support for some "great revival" that will make up the great multitude that are martyred.  That's just another in a long list of fabrications.

 

To each their own.

[Last Daze]

 

 

That statement is baseless.  It is spawned of necessity to fit your narrative.  The reality is that the last days are a time of deception and apostasy.  There are many scriptures to support that including the strong delusion that God sends to those who choose sin over truth in 2 Thess 2.  There is zero support for some "great revival" that will make up the great multitude that are martyred.  That's just another in a long list of fabrications.

 

 

 

Based on history, what BoPeep put forward about people being saved in troubled times is very true, and I don't see how this cannot apply to the future, unless the time for salvation is over.

 

 

Just going by what is written, not human reasoning.  This is what applies to the future:

 

Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thess 2:8-12

 

Make of it what you will.  I never meant to imply that the time of salvation would be over.  In fact, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.  What I said is that there is zero support for a "great revival" which must be necessary for the pretrib notion to be true since a multitude of believers beyond number come out of the great tribulation.  If the church is raptured pretrib then who are those who make up the multitude beyond number that come out of the great tribulation?  Pretrib answer: lets make up a "great revival" that exists no where in scripture.  At least I can't find it anywhere.  Can anyone find the "great revival" passage that I'm missing?  If not, then it is born of human reasoning, not scripture.

 

And how does this play into the "great revival":

 

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  2 Thess 2:3-4

 

Apostasy, delusion, deception...not fertile ground for a "great revival" of believers beyond number from every tribe, tongue, and nation, who all of a sudden now have the faith to give their lives as a testimony for Christ where they didn't before?  I just don't see it.  Everything I can find runs contrary to a "great revival".

[Sister]

 

 

 

That statement is baseless.  It is spawned of necessity to fit your narrative.  The reality is that the last days are a time of deception and apostasy.  There are many scriptures to support that including the strong delusion that God sends to those who choose sin over truth in 2 Thess 2.  There is zero support for some "great revival" that will make up the great multitude that are martyred.  That's just another in a long list of fabrications.

 

 

 

Based on history, what BoPeep put forward about people being saved in troubled times is very true, and I don't see how this cannot apply to the future, unless the time for salvation is over.

 

 

Just going by what is written, not human reasoning.  This is what applies to the future:

 

Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thess 2:8-12

 

Make of it what you will.  I never meant to imply that the time of salvation would be over.  In fact, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.  What I said is that there is zero support for a "great revival" which must be necessary for the pretrib notion to be true since a multitude of believers beyond number come out of the great tribulation.  If the church is raptured pretrib then who are those who make up the multitude beyond number that come out of the great tribulation?  Pretrib answer: lets make up a "great revival" that exists no where in scripture.  At least I can't find it anywhere.  Can anyone find the "great revival" passage that I'm missing?  If not, then it is born of human reasoning, not scripture.

 

And how does this play into the "great revival":

 

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  2 Thess 2:3-4

 

Apostasy, delusion, deception...not fertile ground for a "great revival" of believers beyond number from every tribe, tongue, and nation, who all of a sudden now have the faith to give their lives as a testimony for Christ where they didn't before?  I just don't see it.  Everything I can find runs contrary to a "great revival".

 

Last Daze

 

That's right.

 

 Revelation 9:20   And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

  Revelation 9:21   Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

  Revelation 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

  Revelation 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

[Kan]

Some people place the prophecies of Revelation into the future, hence they have no bearing on the past since John, and none in the present. Whereas those who have taken the book as it reads, understand that the seven seals represent seven phases of time and events from the days of John until the end of the world.

 

Paul would not have told the people in his day, almost 2000 years ago, about these issues of the "falling away," if it were to transpire in some distant future. But Paul, no doubt knew about the prophecies in Daniel, which predicted a 1260 year reign by the Devil's masterpiece - the Roman Catholic empire. Paul was also aware of the 2300 year prophecy which spans those years again, to a point in time beyond the end of those days of tribulation.

 

Paul also mentioned that the "mystery of iniquity is already at work" in his day.

 

An understanding of Daniel, shows this to be the abomination that makes desolate the truth, which had already begun in the days prior to the captivity of Israel in Babylon. Because the Jewish leaders were corrupt sun worshipers.

Hence the keys to unlock the mystery of iniquity are found in type, in the apostasy of the Jews and the Babylonian captivity, which represented the falling away by the Christian world into Papal (Babylonian) rule. See Rev 17. "MYSTERY BABYLON."

 

This great global apostasy is exemplified in the first four seals, the four horses beginning in white and ending in mottled gray.

The last horse represents the 1260 years, which began in 538 AD and ended in 1798 AD.

 

Jesus also said at the end of those days of tribulation there would be signs in the sun, moon and stars, which occurred at the ending of the 1260 days in 1790 AD and in 1833 AD, which is also just before the beginning of the last phase of the High Priest's ministry by Christ in the heavenly temple. This ministry has been missed by the entire world of Christendom, just like the Messiah was not recognized by the world.

 

The beginning of this last phase in the temple in heaven is predicted in Daniel 8. Named as the cleansing of the sanctuary, by the angel, which prophecy Daniel thought was related to the Jewish captivity in Babylon as spoken of by Jeremiah.

 

But the angel came and clarified that (in Daniel 9) by showing that the rebuilding of Jerusalem, under the Persian empire, and the life and death of Christ would all be taking place before the falling away, and the 1260 years of hell on earth by the Papacy.

 

The whole point and exercise of Christendom disregarding this application of prophecy, is to remove the attention away from the Antichrist system- the Papacy, and place it into an indiscriminate future, or away back in the past, applying it to a local hooligan, by comparison to Rome, called Antiochus Epiphanies, who lived sometime before Christ.

 

But John the Revelator places the Devil's kingdoms as culminating in the Roman empire chapter 12, as existing while Christ was on earth, and found to be the prime persecutor of the saints for 1260 years, and the same system which would hunt down the remnant - the very last people of God on earth. There is nothing in there to suggest snip of time just before the end of the world. That mistake comes from ignoring one basic key to unlock prophetic time - vision time, where one day is one year. Nothing adds up without this formula. As soon as it is applied, everything falls into place, exactly, with references in scripture of the reign of certain political entities, and historical recordings, and present day history. 

 

The whole picture of the prophecies are given in the 2nd chapter of Daniel which traces the great empires right until the coming of Christ. All the other prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, its cousin, are grand themes, which cover all the great movements of the worldly kingdoms right until the end. Always fully congruent with the first vision in Daniel of the image.

 

Once people split these themes up and shrink or expand them to their own reckoning, we have confusion over prophecy, the very state of Christendom today, .

It is interesting that the last people of God on earth, have the gift of prophecy Rev 19:10. It is a sign of finding the right people on earth. Without this discovery, people will be wondering after this and that theory, every man having another application.

Would the people of God include those who lived under the fifth and sixth seal? Yes, in the days of the ending of Papal reign, the reformation days.

 

These intelligent and chosen servants of God - the reformers, all understood these prophecies as applying to the most obvious Antichrist the Papacy. But the modern churches have forsaken the teachings of their own founders, and firmly grasped the hand of Popery, apologizing for their former zeal against the Antichrist, and adopting Jezebel's doctrines all over again. So now the Papacy is not pictured as a lonely woman rev 18:7, but having daughters, "The mother of harlots and abominations on earth" Rev 17, There is that old word from Daniel again "abominations." And who are those daughters but those which came out of her?

[Kan]

 

 

Last Daze

 

That's right.

 

 Revelation 9:20   And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

  Revelation 9:21   Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

  Revelation 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

  Revelation 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

 

Note that this takes place during the seven last plagues, when it is to late to repent anyway - people are set in their ways.

 

A revival will take place. A revival among the people of God, and a revival among the deceived. This brings the contest between good and evil on earth to a climax, and the mark of the beast is enforced, which in turn brings on the plagues as predicted in Rev 14. and 16.

[Last Daze]

 

A revival will take place. A revival among the people of God, and a revival among the deceived. This brings the contest between good and evil on earth to a climax, and the mark of the beast is enforced, which in turn brings on the plagues as predicted in Rev 14. and 16.

 

 

I'll stick with what the scriptures indicate.

[Kan]

 

 

A revival will take place. A revival among the people of God, and a revival among the deceived. This brings the contest between good and evil on earth to a climax, and the mark of the beast is enforced, which in turn brings on the plagues as predicted in Rev 14. and 16.

 

 

I'll stick with what the scriptures indicate.

 

 

Excellent.

[WilliamL]

 

 

Last Daze

That's right.

 Revelation 9:20   And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

  Revelation 9:21   Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

  Revelation 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

  Revelation 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

Note that this takes place during the seven last plagues, when it is to late to repent anyway - people are set in their ways.

A revival will take place. A revival among the people of God, and a revival among the deceived. This brings the contest between good and evil on earth to a climax, and the mark of the beast is enforced, which in turn brings on the plagues as predicted in Rev 14. and 16.

Let me try to clear up a couple things here, because you are both partly right, as I understand the Word.

There will be a revival after Jesus appears in the clouds for the elect of his Church:

Zech 12:10 And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This takes place immediately upon this:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Matt. 24:30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

After this event of the Rapture, Israel shall be gathered, purged, and sanctified:

Ezek. 20:34 “I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury [wrath] poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord GOD. 37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant..."

Rev. 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. ... 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God [= "the covenant"] and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So in summary, after the Rapture, there will be a great time of repentance and revival among the remnant of Israel, and whomsoever of the nations that shall join together with them, like at the Exodus. (But the nations as a whole will remain in rebellion.) This revival is what was spoken of by Paul:

Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

Edited August 25, 2015 by WilliamL

[Ezra]

According to the commentary in the bible I am reading, he says the 7 seals happen during the great tribulation. Do you believe this? Why or why not?

He probably means THE SEVENTH SEAL, which is the one connected to the Great Tribulation.  The first five seals (already opened) should be viewed in the light of Matthew 24. The 6th and 7th seals are future.