Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Guest BacKaran]

Amen sister, amen!!! Sheeple got to wake up or they will be shaken up and unawares..?

Blessings

Karan

[WilliamL]

My 2 years of testimony in this forum come to an end today. I am happy to leave it to the homies and the newbies, and move on to other responsibilities of my ministry. May God bless each and every one of you with an open mind and an open heart. Amen.

Below is a summary of post-trib, pre-wrath eschatology, the main point of my focus during my time in this forum.

On 12/7/2015 at 8:10 AM, WilliamL said:

What takes place during the first 5 Seals of Rev. 6 is the same sequence of events that take place in Matt. 24, up to the return of Christ "immediately after the Tribulation," 24:29.

Then come the great heavenly and earthly signs and cataclysms of the 6th Seal: Matt. 24:29-30 = Rev. 6:12-14.

Then comes Jesus in the clouds to take up his elect, at which time 'every eye will see him, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn.' Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 1:7 = Rev. 6:15-17 = Isaiah 2:10-21.

At this point the Great Tribulation has already been fulfilled, and "the great day of [God's] wrath has come," Rev. 6:17. Everything after that point is the period of Wrath, not Tribulation. The Church is now gone, because "God did not appoint us to wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9.

Some teach that the Tribulation and the Wrath are the same thing, but Scripture makes a clear distinction between the two. What the Scriptures teach is that our Lord's Coming will be Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib.

On 12/16/2015 at 5:00 PM, WilliamL said:

Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib Summary

Some believers will be killed during the Trib: these are those saints of the 5th Seal "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9 = Matt. 24:9

Then comes the 6th Seal's heavenly and earthly cataclysms = Matt. 24:29, which come "immediately after the Tribulation."

Then comes Christ in the clouds to gather up his elect = the Rapture, while being seen by every eye (Rev. 1:7), which causes all the unbelievers to mourn, and to flee and hide in fear. Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7, 6:15-17; Is. 2:10-11, 19-21

At that point, after the Rapture of the Church and during the unbelievers' fear, "the great day of His [God's] Wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). But "God did not appoint us [the elect] to [His] Wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9, so we've been taken outta here just before.

But at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event in Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, then tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but the repentant ones of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10

Then John's view is shifted to heaven, and he is shown 'those who came out of the Great Tribulation' (Rev. 7:14), being those just raptured, "standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." Rev. 7:9 These fulfill the promise of Luke 21:36: "Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] and to stand before the Son of Man."

Rev. 8-19 then tells us what will come upon all who were not ready:  they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.

 

These things are summed up in my postscript, which, since some viewers choose to block postscripts, I copy here:

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the heathen wail, the Wrath begins.
 

[Heb 13:8]

Rapture, God's Wrath, Day of the Lord, Sixth Seal Connection

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord

Matt 24:42-44 NIV “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:2 NIV for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Underline: The Day of the Lord is rapture and also God's wrath.

Isa 13:9 NIV See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Eze 7:19 NIV “ ‘They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be treated as a thing unclean. Their silver and gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath. It will not satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs, for it has caused them to stumble into sin.

Zep 1:18 NIV Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

Zep 2:2 NIV before the decree takes effect and that day passes like windblown chaff, before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

Rev 6:15-17 NIV Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord after sixth seal. Sun, moon, stars, earthquake..

Isa 13:10 NIV The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Joel 2:30-31 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Joel 3:14-15 NIV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Mark 13:24 NIV "But in those days, following that distress, "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Acts 2:19-20 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Underline: Heavens rolled up like a scroll, fig tree, nonbelievers hiding in caves.

Isa 2:19 NIV People will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from the fearful presence of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

[Diaste]

43 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rapture, God's Wrath, Day of the Lord, Sixth Seal Connection

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord

Matt 24:42-44 NIV “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:2 NIV for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Underline: The Day of the Lord is rapture and also God's wrath.

Isa 13:9 NIV See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Eze 7:19 NIV “ ‘They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be treated as a thing unclean. Their silver and gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath. It will not satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs, for it has caused them to stumble into sin.

Zep 1:18 NIV Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

Zep 2:2 NIV before the decree takes effect and that day passes like windblown chaff, before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

Rev 6:15-17 NIV Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Underline: Rapture on the Day of the Lord after sixth seal. Sun, moon, stars, earthquake..

Isa 13:10 NIV The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Joel 2:30-31 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Joel 3:14-15 NIV Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Mark 13:24 NIV "But in those days, following that distress, "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Acts 2:19-20 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

2 Pet 3:10 NIV But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Underline: Heavens rolled up like a scroll, fig tree, nonbelievers hiding in caves.

Isa 2:19 NIV People will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from the fearful presence of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.

Isa 34:4 NIV All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

An excellent presentation of the truth of the Lord!

God Bless you!

[Quasar93]

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Critique of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the

 

There are eschatological errors in Marv Rosenthal's book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture." The following is a cursory view of some, which follow:

The first one is the his placement of the beginning of the Day of the Lord at Rev.8 just before the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements. When the fact of the matter is, God begins His timetable to end this present age at the beginning of the 70th and final week in Dan.9:27, with the advent of the antichrist. Who He allows Satan to bring up out of the Abyss [Hell], in Rev.17:8, the man of lawlessness of 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8 who is revealed after the Church is caught up/apostasia/discessio/depart to be with the Lord. Who then takes us to our Father in heaven, as He promined us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28! The one who confirms a covenant/agreement with many and is the trigger that starts the 70th and final week/seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, as Paul states in 2 Thes.2:2.

The fact that Rosenthal sets the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements, in Rev.8, ending with the second coming of Christ is the next error. The antichrist is seen in the very first of the seven seals, the first of the four horsemen, riding the white horse, in Rev.6:2, confirming the "he" in Dan.9:27 who confirms the covenant/agreement with many, triggering the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord will never end after it begins with the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as pin pointed in 2 Thes.2:1-3, followed immediately with the antichrist being revealed who triggers the seven year tribulation, confirming Dan.9:27. As it also consists of the blessings of God for all His people during the Millennial kingdom of Christ here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6.

Another error is the fact that Rosenthal involves the Church in the tribulation, all the way through six of the seven seals, after the antichrist is revealed as the first of the four horsemen, in the first of the seven seals, which Paul clearly states will not be revealed until after the departure of the Church, in 2 Thes.2:3.

The next error is the fact that the Church has nothing whatever to do with the ministry of Jesus during His entire first advent, He made abundantly clear, was exclusively to the "lost sheep of Israel," in Mt.15:24 as well as in Mt.10:5-6. His Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:4-31 and counterparts of Mk.13 and Lk.21 do not address the Church in any way, because it did not exist before the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The Church is caught up to be with the Lord in 1 Thes.4:13-18, from where He takes us to be with our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, before the Day of the Lord/the 70th week of Daniel/the seven year tribulation begins, in 2 Thes.2:1-8.

Both Post-trib as well as pre-wrath rapture positions are refuted by 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that prove the pre-trib rapture teachings, together with Jn.14:2-3, 28.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 8, 2016 by Quasar93

[Omegaman 3.0]

Quasar, did you happen to notice that these variaous categories that you just posted in, actually have topics?

For example, this one is called "Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position". It doesn't look to me, that you defended anything about the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath position. Since you were not responding to a question asked of you, you are completely off topic. That you want to defend pre-trib, fine, but you should do so it the forum area designated for that purpose.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Quasar93 said:

---

The first one error  is the his placement of the beginning of the Day of the Lord at Rev.8 just before the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements.

Well first of all, if you want to debate Rosenthal, you're going to have to do so to the man.
Expecting Pre-Wrath adherents to do so puts us (and me) at a distinct disadvantage because I now have to speak for him.

Secondly, just because what Rosenthal presents doesn't fit in your eschatology, which sounds like classical Pre-Trib (one 'seven') doesn't mean Rosenthal is wrong.

As I think the Day of the Lord encompasses all the events in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of the sidebar account when John is interrupted in recording what transpires of 11:1-13) from the sixth Seal through the first Trumpet - I would not say Rosenthal is entirely wrong.

I am prepared to defend that statement with Scripture.
You are free to criticize with Scripture.
But it is what is written, and not what we think that matters.

If you want to go on from here, I invite it.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Quasar93 said:

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The fact that Rosenthal sets the beginning of the Day of the Lord at the beginning of the seven trumpet judgements, in Rev.8, ending with the second coming of Christ is the next error.

This is actually more of the same.
I agree with Rosenthal that the Day of the Lord is a single 'day', and that Day can be accomplished in a single Hebrew yom - which begins and ends at sunset.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Quasar93 said:

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The antichrist is seen in the very first of the seven seals, the first of the four horsemen, riding the white horse, in Rev.6:2,

People have tried to pin the tail on the donkey of the first rider for years.
Inevitably, it comes down to two complete opposites: the anti-Christ or Christ.

I think both miss the mark.
As to the identity of the four horsemen, I think you have to look to Zechariah...
And there, he is told that they are "spirits" going to work in the world.

Scripturally, that is all we have.
Of course, I have my opinion on what the first horseman represents, but that's only my opinion, and not the truth.
Any more than what you have presented is only your opinion, and not the truth per se either.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Quasar93 said:

---

Another error is the fact that Rosenthal involves the Church in the tribulation, all the way through six of the seven seals, after the antichrist is revealed as the first of the four horsemen, in the first of the seven seals, which Paul clearly states will not be revealed until after the departure of the Church, in 2 Thes.2:3

Quasar: Any time someone uses "clearly" to interpret Scripture, I know it's anything but clear, but rather only "clear" to them as it is their conclusion - and not so plainly stated in Scripture.

The word: apostasy, is misused, by some, to mean "departing first".
This is a terrible translation of the word which comes to us virtually unchanged from the Greek.

So when Jesus tells us not to take the Mark of the Beast in the book of Revelation,
When Jesus warns us in the Gospels not to try to save our own lives (and not be martyred by feigning to worship the talking image),
When the Harvest from the clouds comes after the Two Laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible in Rev 14,
When Jesus says those days are shortened for the sake of the Elect - which as the New Testament writers used, IS the Church,
And when again in the Olivet Discourse, then the Son of Man comes and gathers the Elect -

We can surmise that we do go through the Great Tribulation.

And in the parables following the Olivet Discourse,
We can see one directly pointed at your class of believers - not to panic and go looking for Jesus in all the wrong places!
We also have the command to: Endure Patiently.

And if we lose our life for His Sake, then we will gain it for all eternity.
You don't have to "make it" to the end, to "make it" into Heaven.