Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
George

Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I think you have that misplaced.  You perceive it as religious cowardice and you hate it.   The scripture says it is our blessed hope.  So who should I believe, you or the HS?  No brainer.  

He means the popularized idea of the 'rapture', not the fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

He means the popularized idea of the 'rapture', not the fact.

I guess that begs the question, which popularized idea?  Pre-trib is most definitely the minority opinion. I think anyone who does a casual study of the various positions over the centuries would have to admit that if they are honest.    Most of the formal church has tended to be amillenial or post-trib, with preterism hitting all time highs in some theological circles.  Mid-Trib seems to get less attention, but still has more adherents that pre-trib.    Yeah, pre-trib is definitely the black sheep of the flock of eschatological concepts.   It suffers an inordinate amount of abuse given the small percentage of formal adherents to the idea.  

Surprisingly, I have never felt intimidated being in that black sheep category.  And I have no angst against the other positions though I disagree on many points with them.  I have no problem stating what position I hold and why, but I waste little effort trying to tear apart the other concepts.  I guess  I just don't feel threatened by the other positions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Diaste said:

He means the popularized idea of the 'rapture', not the fact.

THE DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED
Yes, the Day will be shortened, 

A deadline has been established by the Word of God that no one power can go beyond what has been determined, that is the last seven years of the existence of the world of Devil IN WHICH WE ARE LIVING YET.  

The Holy Scriptures states that FIRST Beast (Rev. 13:1-10) will reign only and only for 42 months (verse 5) together with the red Dragon, that is the 2nd Beast (Rev. 13:v.11-18), and AFTER the end of the first period of 42 months  will reign the Dragon for other 42 months, no more, absolutely no more than 42 months. 

The Church of Christ JESUS, in other words, the people of God,  are moving toward the last seven years of the existence of the Devil's world, and the brothers must be prepared for the final journey in this satanic world. Two great satanic and powerful events are previously revealed to take place in the last seven years of this world, which will begin when the second Beast - the false messiah and son of perdition  -  rises up out of the earth - Israel - and manifests itself to the world, this terrible event will shake the religious structures of the Pope and his worldwide Church. 

The FIRST Beast of seven heads and 10 horns, that is the religious and powerful Pope with his Roman Catholic Church that rides upon him and is spread in the seven regions of the earth - they are Europe, and Asia, and Africa, and Oceania(Australia),  and North America, and Central America and South America -,  in this present time he is as whether be in Stand by, but as soon as the false messiah is manifested, there will be two mighty Beasts operating in the world, and both will make a deal to establish a religious and universal empire on earth with a central government, and in accord the deal made between both Beasts, the Beast of Rome, the Pope, and its woman, the Great Whore that rides upon him, that is the RCC, will reign first (Rev.17:v.15).  What will happen in this first period leaded by the Beast of seven heads and ten horns, that is the Pope?  Rev. 13:v.3-8 reveals:

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


About the red Dragon, the 2nd Beast, the false messiah, the false lamb, as is written in John 5:v.43-44, and man of sin and son doomed to perdition, a former Cherub, who has two horns like a lamb, but he speaks as a Dragon, he is the own Satan incarnated, who will sit in the temple of God saying he is God (the abomination of desolation), about him I intend to speak in another post.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 10:18 AM, OldCoot said:

I think you have that misplaced.  You perceive it as religious cowardice and you hate it.   The scripture says it is our blessed hope.  So who should I believe, you or the HS?  No brainer.  

Scripture does NOT describe the rapture as our blessed hope.  

The phrase "blessed hope" is employed as an interpretation of scripture linked to escapist rapture ideology.  

First: The word rapture never appears in scripture at all.   It is as fictitious as the popular dogma.

Second: The blessed hope mentioned in Titus DOES NOT refer to the event of the Second Coming of Christ.  Titus 2:13, like all scripture references about the rapture, is TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.  That scripture actually refers to what Christians are expected to be doing "as we await" Jesus' appearance.  It does not refer directly to the EVENT of the Second Coming.  Rapture fans ignore this point and would have us believe it justifies their false dogma !!!!  

And what is it we are expected to be doing as we await Jesus' return?  Telling each other lies about the rapture or renouncing worldly passions and ungodliness?  Read it again and learn something.  Read it again and ACT upon its advice.   It is NOT about a false rapture.  It IS about living sensible upright and godly lives as we wait.  Christian living is what Titus is about.  It's called context, but rapture fans ignore that too.  Instead they justify sin and hope for Captain Kirk to beam them away from the consequences of their actions.   That's called spiritual irresponsibility and moral cowardice.  

I've heard congregations being encouraged to sin, "so that grace may abound" coupled with rapture slogans in church sermons.   Am I to suppose no one else has heard this?   I doubt it.   There is no such thing as a license to sin.  God will NOT excuse it or sweep it under the table. (1 Peter 4:17) If the reader supposes He will, then he or she is doing themselves a gross disservice.

This is the nut of the problem.   The rapture is about some future fiction, not about what Christians are to be doing NOW.   This is why its a doctrine of demons.  

Interpreters of the false doctrine of the rapture will use any method, any buzz word or any slogan to justify their false doctrine.  Proponents of the rapture dogma refuse to admit to this practice.  

Rapture doesn't have anything to do with the Second Coming of Christ.   There are at least three separate theories describing the rapture, each of which has Jesus returning two three or even four times.  The Bible says He returns a second time, not a third or forth or whatever.   Rapture fans can't even be counted on to agree which of the false advents of Christ are correct - pre, mid or post tribulation.  

Does this illogic bother any of them?  No.  

Doesn't this serve as cause for any of them to reexamine their doctrine for flaws?  Absolutely not.  

Fans of rapture demonic doctrine stick to their story no matter what facts and arguments and logic are presented otherwise.  This is a matter of dogmatic adherence to satan, not a search for truth or even a positive basis of faith.  It's a diversion of satan to take attention away from what a Christian ought to be doing NOW - replacing it with a false notion about a future that will never unfold as it has been interpreted in Christian supermarket tabloid trash.   

Rapture fans have made up their minds and cannot be persuaded by facts or logic to abandon their false position.   Their own doctrine is riddled with illogic and untruth, yet they refuse to see it for what it really is - a lie of satan.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
scripture reference
  • Thumbs Up 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 9:57 AM, OldCoot said:

....

And I really don't see Yeshua essentially following this pattern that the other positions seem to like....   "We will get betrothed.  One day I will come for you, but before I do, I will beat the living snot out of you for 7 years, then I will come and we will have dinner.  Comfort one another with those words."

......

 I like the quote, but disagree with its application.

Why would God "beat the living snot out of the world?"    You left that part out.

God is the Lord of history, while man is Lord of nature.  

The Lord of nature has botched the job.   The Lord of history has patiently waited for man to straighten out the mess he's made, but has observed that man is unwilling to do so.  Consequently the corrections that need to be applied will of necessity be painful and bloody.   History has shown over and over again that when man refuses to correct abuse blood is always required of him - always.   You know this as well as I do.  Christ will not return until the full measure of blood has been counted.  

Jesus likened the tribulation to a woman in childbirth.  

Shall God murder the expectant mother and deliver the child by methods other than those of natural process?  Shall God deliver His kingdom like a premature infant?  He will not, if Biblical prophecy is considered to be true.  Everything God has promised will happen at the appropriate time - including the Second Coming.

The argument is about the rapture, not the Second Coming.  That's another demonic twist rapture fans will refuse to admit.   

The rapture is about dinner in the sky prior to ... during... or following trouble on earth.   It has nothing to do with depending upon Christ in the midst of trouble - nothing to do with good courage in the saving grace of God promised to all who will accept it.  In point of fact, rapture fans REJECT God's offer of grace in trouble.  They won't admit to that either.   No liar likes to be called a liar and no coward likes to be be reminded of his lack of backbone.   Christianity is about courage and a resolute heart in hope of the future - not about escaping it. Rapture fans seek to run away from it - like cowards.  I welcome trouble because in it I shall discover Christ's strong arm to save.  Rapture fans seek no part of this discovery.

The Second Coming is about God putting His foot upon the earth so as to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt.  All three major religions accept this in theory.  Their application, however, is somewhat different.   Rapture fans miss the point entirely because they think they'll be having TV dinner in the sky as they watch the mayhem on earth like a celestial version of the Evening News.  Christianity isn't a spectator sport !!!

Nothing could be further from the truth, from logic, or from prophecy itself than the rapture doctrine.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by choir loft
  • Thumbs Up 2
  • This is Worthy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, choir loft said:

 I like the quote, but disagree with its application.

Why would God "beat the living snot out of the world?"    You left that part out.

I would ask then, what is the purpose of the tribulation period?  What is its ultimate goal? Who is its major focus?

Edited by OldCoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The Second Coming is about God putting His foot upon the earth so as to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt.  All three major religions accept this in theory.

And those who hold to it really have a myopic understanding of the scripture.   Evil with still be in the kingdom.  Sin will still be a part of the kingdom.  And yes, even death will still be a part of the kingdom.   All 1000 years of it.  And it will culminate with one last major rebellion against the Lord when Satan is released and foments a worldwide rebellion.  Revelation 20 and Psalms 2.  

So if the second coming is to bring personal and political wickedness to a screeching halt, then the scripture sure paints another picture. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 show a less that rosy picture as well as Ezekiel where those who will not go up to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.  Isaiah is pretty clear that death will still be in the kingdom.   And Psalms and Revelation show us that Yeshua will be ruling with a rod of iron.  Well if he had brought all wickedness to a screeching halt, what would be the purpose of ruling as a heavy handed dictator?   No, there will still be discontent and rebellion in the kingdom that will have to be dealt with.

Even when given ideal conditions, a virtual restoration of the the Garden of Eden existence, the sinful heart of man remains.  Those that survive the tribulation period and go into the kingdom will still be mortal.  They will repopulate the earth.  They will still have their sin nature intact.  And eventually, almost the entire kingdom will rebel.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Edited by OldCoot
  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, choir loft said:

Scripture does NOT describe the rapture as our blessed hope.  

The phrase "blessed hope" is employed as an interpretation of scripture linked to escapist rapture ideology.  

First: The word rapture never appears in scripture at all.   It is as fictitious as the popular dogma.

Second: The blessed hope mentioned in Titus DOES NOT refer to the event of the Second Coming of Christ.  Titus 2:13, like all scripture references about the rapture, is TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.  That scripture actually refers to what Christians are expected to be doing "as we await" Jesus' appearance.  It does not refer directly to the EVENT of the Second Coming.  Rapture fans ignore this point and would have us believe it justifies their false dogma !!!!  

And what is it we are expected to be doing as we await Jesus' return?  Telling each other lies about the rapture or renouncing worldly passions and ungodliness?  Read it again and learn something.  Read it again and ACT upon its advice.   It is NOT about a false rapture.  It IS about living sensible upright and godly lives as we wait.  Christian living is what Titus is about.  It's called context, but rapture fans ignore that too.  Instead they justify sin and hope for Captain Kirk to beam them away from the consequences of their actions.   That's called spiritual irresponsibility and moral cowardice.  

I've heard congregations being encouraged to sin, "so that grace may abound" coupled with rapture slogans in church sermons.   Am I to suppose no one else has heard this?   I doubt it.   There is no such thing as a license to sin.  God will NOT excuse it or sweep it under the table. (1 Peter 4:17) If the reader supposes He will, then he or she is doing themselves a gross disservice.

This is the nut of the problem.   The rapture is about some future fiction, not about what Christians are to be doing NOW.   This is why its a doctrine of demons.  

Interpreters of the false doctrine of the rapture will use any method, any buzz word or any slogan to justify their false doctrine.  Proponents of the rapture dogma refuse to admit to this practice.  

Rapture doesn't have anything to do with the Second Coming of Christ.   There are at least three separate theories describing the rapture, each of which has Jesus returning two three or even four times.  The Bible says He returns a second time, not a third or forth or whatever.   Rapture fans can't even be counted on to agree which of the false advents of Christ are correct - pre, mid or post tribulation.  

Does this illogic bother any of them?  No.  

Doesn't this serve as cause for any of them to reexamine their doctrine for flaws?  Absolutely not.  

Fans of rapture demonic doctrine stick to their story no matter what facts and arguments and logic are presented otherwise.  This is a matter of dogmatic adherence to satan, not a search for truth or even a positive basis of faith.  It's a diversion of satan to take attention away from what a Christian ought to be doing NOW - replacing it with a false notion about a future that will never unfold as it has been interpreted in Christian supermarket tabloid trash.   

Rapture fans have made up their minds and cannot be persuaded by facts or logic to abandon their false position.   Their own doctrine is riddled with illogic and untruth, yet they refuse to see it for what it really is - a lie of satan.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

So whats the truth of the gathering?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I would ask then, what is the purpose of the tribulation period?  What is its ultimate goal? Who is its major focus?

Go back and read my post again.  Apparently you didn't do a thorough job the first time.  You're knee jerk reaction resulted in misunderstanding and deliberate obfuscation.  Without going into detail, I touched on some of the major points.  

As for specific answers to the questions you've posed above, I suggest you abandon your tendency to dwell upon buzz words and religious slogans and begin an honest study of the End Times.  It should only take you a few years to undo all the rubbish you've accepted as gospel.  Bear in mind that virtually ALL the literature published about the rapture is a money making proposition.  Consider the source and you'll realize where it's going with it's false assertions.   Or.....you can continue to be conned by the snake oil salesmen that pitch rapture trash on the American church (all the rest of the world's churches have rejected it, and for good reason).

If you want quick and dirty here's my answer;

1. Purpose? Elimination of sin upon the earth. (Revelation 20)

2. Goal? Establish the kingdom of God upon the earth as a political reality (Daniel 2).

3. Focus? Israel, always Israel. (read the entire Bible)

Baruck HaShem Yeshuah

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

  • This is Worthy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, choir loft said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 

The trumpet must sound first and trumpet means message, right? And the message for the present time is of the harvest, in other words the harvest means the "rapture", the separation, evidently, which is the separation of the wheat from the chaff, as JESUS said: "Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to BURN  them: but gather the wheat into my barn".

Brothers,  which will be the voice or the message of the archangel and who is him? What is his name? Brothers, we must know from whom the Word of God is speaking (God is a title, the Word is God). By the way, the own Scriptures show us all these things. 

The voice of archangel, huh, Who is him? Now, now, he is Michael, evidently. What is his message? What is his voice for us all hear?  The prophet Daniel reveals unto us clearly about this.  The wise prophet revealed what will happen in this end of time through the voice of the archangel Michael, believe in the message of Daniel my brothers:   He said: Daniel 12:1-4:
1 - And at that time (in this time of the end) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (the voice of Michael will cause this great trouble on the earth), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 - And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

JESUS said: Mat.24:v.15CJB - 15 “So when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place”[a](let the reader understand the allusion),

Rev. 11:v.15KJV  tell us another message, saying: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  (What will be the efect of this message around the world of the Devil?)  The verse 18 reveals unto us:   18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.   Here we see also the harvest (the separation) of the wheat from the tares.

Michael, as such as the Lord JESUS, is also a son of man, as such as God called several prophets in the OT. 

And JESUS said:  Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?   Be Michael, be JESUS.

 

Brothers. where is the rumour said by the Lord JESUS?  Mat.25:6 - 6 At midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.  What time is it on God's watch?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...