What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Kan]

 

 

Then God is a liar, according to you. David's throne, his authority/kingship, not the actual piece of furniture, is on earth and has to stay on earth for Jesus to fulfill prophecy as the physical king/Messiah of Israel.

No the Davidic reign is not universal. It is particular to Israel. Jesus is the Savior of the world, but he is Israel's Messiah.

Shiloh,

I agree that the Davidic throne was on earth and if reinstated that it would be on earth, but where is King David today?

King David died and is awaiting the resurrection of OT saints. Jesus is the next in line to the throne of David and He will sit on that throne as king when He comes to earth as King of Israel and King of kings....the Lion of Judah.

 

 

Thank you Sister, I agree with you on that, so far as I have read in the Bible, and I was hoping Shiloh could answer it, because his answer might be different, and help me to understand his point of view about the 1000 years.

[Kan]

Back to the thread topic, I apologize for going off on a tangent as well. 

 

I used to think what Jesus said about one of two people being "taken" and the other left, seemed to support the rapture, but apart from that illustration, no other text seems to prove the rapture. All the texts of the end times, talk about one event and not two, so when asked the topic question, I'd have to say there is no rapture, and if there is, it occurs on the same day as the Lord's return.

 

And as for the applications of Daniel's prophecies, they seem to depend on a future event or signal to begin the calculations of time, which does not agree with Christ applying Daniel's prophecies to His time, and the near future of his disciples.

To me it indicates that the prophecies in Daniel, began in his day, and stretched right to the end of time, rather than all compressed into a very short period at the end, when it certainly could not apply to Christ's disciples and the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

If the introductory vision of the future in Daniel 2, gives a panoramic view of the entire history of the world from Daniel to the end, marking all the major empires, it would be fair to think that the other prophecies in Daniel follow the same foundation.

 

This application then gives us specific starting times for the time lines, and even predicts the time of the death of Christ which cannot be applied elsewhere.

 

It seems to me that the rapture ideas, the tribulation and mix and match times given in Daniel are a modern interpretation which does not agree with the knowledge that Christ, or the Apostles, or the New Testament puts forward.

 

It is also disappointing, but not surprising, that there are as many different versions of these prophecies as there are personal persuasions.

 

This is not a picture of unity or truth, but of confusion, and cannot be a reflection of the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

I would be inclined to dismiss modern theories and go back to what the OT, Christ, and the early Christians taught on these matters.

But from observing people who have been offered such an opportunity, I have seen them unable to break the spell of crazy ideas, so that when they 'read' anything in the Bible it 'proves' their old ideas.

They are damaged, and if they were to be honest with God, they would have to trust that God, has left us with a reliable English language and a version of the Bible to read by the rules of English grammar, and not by rose glasses.

 

People read pure fantasy into the Bible, and then defend it in the name of God. 

 

The bottom line of this scenario, may be the philosophy that the scriptures are open to interpretation - every man to his own. 

 

That is a denial of God's clarity and purpose in preserving this Book in today's language, and a dismissal of the intent of it's godly translators who would rather die than mess it's content.

 

God expects us to read the Bible and understand correct English grammar. People who cannot do that faithfully and honestly, should not be speaking for God or the Bible, because it is a disgrace to the Holy Spirit, and taking the Name of God in vain.

[Omegaman 3.0]

See what you have started bopeep? I think the difference might
be a matter of a few seconds. Better than any theme park ride!

 

Actually, typical pre-tribism, has the rapture, followed by the second coming, I think the order is reversed.

 

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

I think we have there the second coming (coming on the clouds) and the rapture (gathering of the elect) in that order.

[Kan]

 

 

 

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

I think we have there the second coming (coming on the clouds) and the rapture (gathering of the elect) in that order.

 

 

In this text alone, is there any basis for separating or even declaring two events - the Lord's return in the clouds and a gathering?

 

It could be one event, the signs in the heavens, the powers of heaven shaken, the appearance of Christ in the clouds and the gathering of His people.

 

We can't say for sure the period of time from verse 29 to 31 either. But it has a matter of urgency about it to be ready at any time.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I do not see a time period, but there might be a sequence implied by the word "then", Of course, if then refers to the same thing as the other then, it would meant at that time, so it could be seen either way I guess. However, Pauls tells us that when the Lord comes, the dead in Christ will rise first, THEN we who are alive will be caught up to join them in the clouds, so that seems to clarify this to

 

1. The Lord appears in the sky at His coming
2. The dead in Christ rise first
3. Then we who are alive will rise to meet them in the air.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air  - 1 Thess 4

[Ezra]

See what you have started bopeep? I think the difference might

be a matter of a few seconds. Better than any theme park ride!

Actually, typical pre-tribism, has the rapture, followed by the second coming, I think the order is reversed.

 

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

I think we have there the second coming (coming on the clouds) and the rapture (gathering of the elect) in that order.

 

The gathering of the elect from the four winds is a reference to the gathering of believing Jews (called an elect remnant is Scripture) at the Second Coming of Christ.  That will be long after the Rapture.  At the Rapture Christ personally comes for His saints (the Church), but here He sends His angels to gather Jews from around the world, and "so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26).  Big difference.  Scripture says "the Lord HIMSELF" in connection with the Rapture.

 

Something which many Christians fail to understand is that the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church, and everything to do with Jerusalem, the Temple, the Jews, and Judea.  It is addressed to Jews and it is a revelation of how things will progress in Judea and Jerusalem until the Second Coming.  At the same time, it gives an overview of the events which will occur worldwide between the first and second advents of Christ.

 

The Lord did not bring the Church into the picture at this time (prior to His resurrection) because it would have been premature.  Even after Pentecost, Peter had to struggle with the idea that Gentiles would be a part of the Church.  It is only in Paul's epistles that we are given a revelation of what the Church is and how Christ will return for His saints. 

 

The Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be simultaneous, and indeed there is absolutely nothing in Revelation (or anywhere else to show such an anomaly).

The Rapture is for salvation, while the Second Coming is for judgment (Jude 14,15; Rev 1:7))

¹⁴ And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

¹⁵ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

Please notice the universal mourning at the Second Coming.  How can that be compatible with the Rapture?  There is a gap of at least seven years between the two events, but the time differential could be greater also.

[Serving]

There is a literal declaration of the 1000 years in revelations .. the seal.

 

We all know what a seal is right .. look at this small descriptive I cut out of an overall explanation regarding seals :

 

For legal purposes, the definition of a seal may be extended to include rubber stamps,[2] or writing specified words ("seal" or "L.S.").[3]

 

Now look at the 3 legal terms God imparted onto the very literal seal :

 

Revelation 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should (1) deceive the nations no more, (2) till the thousand years should be fulfilled: (3) and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

No symbolism there .. the charges & TERMS are all plainly laid out legal speak from God.

 

Now some might say, "ahh, but a 1000 years with God is as 1 day" ..  er .. no sorry .. not good enough .. the context God made that declaration in had to do with the effects of time in regards to Himself in the context of His immortality .. so it would be an null & void counter to the very literal rendering of the above declaration because God is using the time frame relevant to PLANET EARTH & the NATIONS which ARE subject to the effects of time.

 

The 1000 years is literal .. no doubt whatsoever.

 

Cheers.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Serving

[FresnoJoe]

This defies all rationality, all logic, all right use of reason.

 

 

This Defies All Rationality,

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Revelation 20:4-7

 

All Logic, All Right Use

 

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

 

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

 

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

 

Of Reason

 

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:7-9

[thereselittleflower]

There is a literal declaration of the 1000 years in revelations .. the seal.

 

We all know what a seal is right .. look at this small descriptive I cut out of an overall explanation regarding seals :

 

For legal purposes, the definition of a seal may be extended to include rubber stamps,[2] or writing specified words ("seal" or "L.S.").[3]

 

Now look at the 3 legal terms God imparted onto the very literal seal :

 

Revelation 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should (1) deceive the nations no more, (2) till the thousand years should be fulfilled: (3) and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

No symbolism there .. the charges & TERMS are all plainly laid out legal speak from God.

 

Now some might say, "ahh, but a 1000 years with God is as 1 day" ..  er .. no sorry .. not good enough .. the context God made that declaration in had to do with the effects of time in regards to Himself in the context of His immortality .. so it would be an null & void counter to the very literal rendering of the above declaration because God is using the time frame relevant to PLANET EARTH & the NATIONS which ARE subject to the effects of time.

 

The 1000 years is literal .. no doubt whatsoever.

 

Cheers.

 

 

Why do you believe the seals make this an event future to John and the 1st century christians?  I'm sorry, I just don't follow how this mandates your understanding.

[thereselittleflower]

 

This defies all rationality, all logic, all right use of reason.

 

 

This Defies All Rationality,

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Revelation 20:4-7

 

All Logic, All Right Use

 

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

 

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

 

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

 

Of Reason

 

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:7-9

 

 

 

Joe, you're making me look at that passage again.

 

I may have to get back to you later on this though.