What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, Kan...   You repeated what I already said, the believers who survive the Tribulation will go into the Millennium.

 

Actually Revelation 20 places the saints on earth in vv. 8,9.   Read your Bible.   Not only that, but every other passage in the Bible that describes the millennial reign of Jesus, puts Jesus' reign on earth.   That incudes Ezek. 40-48 which describes the millennial temple and the earthly tribal re-allotments given to the restored nation of Israel.

 

Sorry, but the Bible clearly puts Jesus millennial reign on earth when you examine everything the Bible ha to say about the millennial kingdom in both Old and New Testaments.   You clearly are familiar with those passages.

 

So Kan, am I to understand that you don't hold to the Bible as your authority?   I ask because you seem to condemn those who do.

[thereselittleflower]

 

there is widespread deception especially in the churches.

 

 

there is no indication in scripture nor in history to this day that yahshua is ruling the kings and countries on earth --

 

quite the opposite.

 

 

 

So Jeff, you're saying that the Apostle John was in error, and thus scripture is in error when John says:

 

 Revelation 1:5

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--

 

 

Stating there is no indication in scripture or history that Jesus is ruling the kings on earth is to put what you say in diametric opposition to what the Apostle John says right here.

 

I do not intend to be mean, but your words create a great difficulty here, for either you are right or the Apostle John is right, but you both can't be right.

 

Which is inerrant?  The scriptures or you?

[thereselittleflower]

Yes, Kan...   You repeated what I already said, the believers who survive the Tribulation will go into the Millennium.

 

Actually Revelation 20 places the saints on earth in vv. 8,9.   Read your Bible.   Not only that, but every other passage in the Bible that describes the millennial reign of Jesus, puts Jesus' reign on earth.   That incudes Ezek. 40-48 which describes the millennial temple and the earthly tribal re-allotments given to the restored nation of Israel.

 

Sorry, but the Bible clearly puts Jesus millennial reign on earth when you examine everything the Bible ha to say about the millennial kingdom in both Old and New Testaments.   You clearly are familiar with those passages.

 

 

 

 

Yet no proof has bee presented that we should take these words in Revelation to mean that there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

 

The words "on earth" do not appear in Rev 20 in relationship to any kind of reign of Christ, and we've already established this book is of the apocalyptic genre which is highly symbolic, and numbers in apocalyptic literature are symbolic and not literal, so there is no such thing as a literal 1000 year reign.

 

All we see are claims this passage must be interpreted.  But we see no actual evidence to support that this passage must be interpreted in the way you insist.   

 

Where  do we see any evidence of mandate that we understand this passage in scripture the way you claim it must be understood?

 

Where are those every other passages in the bible that describe a literal 1000 year reign of Christ?    What other passages even mention a thousand years?

 

Where are those every other passages that requires Jesus to be physically present on earth during his reign?

Edited July 17, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[thereselittleflower]

Shiloh, you claim that years are never used figuratively in Revelation.

 

Revelation is of the apocalyptic genre which uses highly symbolic language.

 

As such, years are also highly symbolic, and the symbolic meaning must be ascertained to have a right understanding of this work

 

What is your claim that the word "years,"  in the most symbolic book of the bible, is not to be understood symbolilcally, but literally, based on?  

 

 

 

Just repeating claims is not the same as offering valid evidence for your claims.

 

Just repeating that the 1000 years is literal because it says "a thousand years" is not valid evidence for it being a literal 1000 years.

 

When you say "a thousand years' means as literal 1000 years because it says "a thousand years",  you are simply creating a circular argument.  Circular arguments are logically invalid in and of themselves.  When you use a cicular argument regarding words from a highly symbolic work from a highly symbolic genre, the problem is magnified.

 

To create a valid  argument it must be linear,     If A then B, where B is dependent on A being true but A is not dependent on B being true.    

 

The arguments you have presented about the thousand years are circular  where B is dependent on A being true, and A is dependent on B being true.   We are stuck in a never ending loop.

 

 

There is not one other place in the bible that speaks of a literal "thousand year" period.     There can be found no valid support for the claim that words from the most highly symbolic book of the bible must be understood to mean a literal 1000 years, when every other instance of such a phrase has always been used figuratively in the bible.

 

If you say I am incorrect, then there will be other evidences of the phrase  "a thousand years" being used literally in the bible.

 

I challenge you to find and post these other instances from outside the book of Revelation, (not from Revelation for its use there is what is in contention here), in50c scripture.

 

 

Here are the three times outside of Revelations where the phrase "a thousand years" appears  - they are all used figuratively, never literally:

 

Psa 90:4

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

 

 Ecc 6:6

Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

 

 2Pe 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Edited July 17, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Guest shiloh357]

Just because Revelation uses symbolic language, it doesn't mean we can just arbitrarily relegate everything in it to symbolism.  It doesn't work that way.   And the years are NEVER used symbolically and you are helpless to prove otherwise.  

 

If you are going to claim that the years are symbolic, then you are going to have to ante up the textual evidence that supports that claim.  If the text wants you to understand the years are symbolic, what does the text specifically say they are symbolic of???    You won't be able to show that, because the text never indicate symbolism in connection to the years.

 

It is not enough for YOU to claim the years are symbolic, as if simply declaring such will make it so.  Either prove your claim or admit you're wrong ('cause you are wrong; 100% wrong).  The difference between you and me is that I can actually give logical, solid and rational explanations for why 1,000 years is not symbolic.   All you can do is repeat the same, irrational warmed over stew.

 

My claim has never been, "1,000 years are literal because it says 1,000 years."    You aren't even able to frame my arguments correctly; it's no wonder your exegesis is so pathetically sloppy.   If you are going to assign values to my arguments, how  about actually addressing what I said instead of making up things I never said and then trying refute arguments I never raised.    So I am not making any circular arguments.

 

My claim that the use of years in the book of Revelation are not symbolic is based on a least four things:

 

1.  There is nothing in the Bible that says, they are symbolic.   There are no internal textual indicators connected to the 3 1/2 years or 1,000 years that demand those years  be understood symbolically.

 

2.  Secondly, the Messianic Kingdom is described multiple times (as I have already posted yesterday) in various places in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Micah, etc.  And all of them describe a literal Kingdom on the earth complete with a temple and David's Throne upon which the Messiah sits.

 

3.   Thirdly, Revelation 20: 4-9, aside from not using any symbolic imagery, mentions the fact that Satan is bound for 1,000 years and it is clear that Satan has never been bound since the resurrection, but he will be bound and then released.   No symbolism attached to that either.   Not a single symbolic image is put forth.  Following that he is going to roam the earth and assemble an army to attack the saints on the earth in Rev. 20: 8,9.

 

4.  When symbolism is used in the Bible, it not only tells you that it is using symbolism, but it tells you what the symbolism is a reference to.  It points to the reality the symbol is trying to express.    You have been, repeatedly asked, what the 1,000 year is symbolic of, but you can't point to one verse in Revelation that explains what "1,000 years"  is symbolic of.   For that reason and the reasons given above, you have provided NO reason to accept you claim that it is symbolic.

 

I never said that 1,000 years are never used figuratively in the Bible.   I said they are not used symbolically in the book of Revelation.    It is the height of irresponsible exegesis to take 1,000 years the way it is used in poetry and prose and impose that usage on a different genre.    Revelation 20 is not making a poetic reference to 1,000 years.  It is not in any figurative.   You cannot arbitrarily impose a figurative meaning of word in one text, simply because it is used figuratively in some other texts.

[missmuffet]

Yes, Kan...   You repeated what I already said, the believers who survive the Tribulation will go into the Millennium.

 

Actually Revelation 20 places the saints on earth in vv. 8,9.   Read your Bible.   Not only that, but every other passage in the Bible that describes the millennial reign of Jesus, puts Jesus' reign on earth.   That incudes Ezek. 40-48 which describes the millennial temple and the earthly tribal re-allotments given to the restored nation of Israel.

 

Sorry, but the Bible clearly puts Jesus millennial reign on earth when you examine everything the Bible ha to say about the millennial kingdom in both Old and New Testaments.   You clearly are familiar with those passages.

 

So Kan, am I to understand that you don't hold to the Bible as your authority?   I ask because you seem to condemn those who do.

Yes,Jesus tells a Parable in Matthew 25:31-46 about the separation of the Sheep and Goats.The setting is the beginning of the 1000 years Millennium.Those who are believers will go right into the 1000 year Millennium.Those who are not believers will go to hades to wait for the Great White Throne judgment.

[thereselittleflower]

 

Yes, Kan...   You repeated what I already said, the believers who survive the Tribulation will go into the Millennium.

 

Actually Revelation 20 places the saints on earth in vv. 8,9.   Read your Bible.   Not only that, but every other passage in the Bible that describes the millennial reign of Jesus, puts Jesus' reign on earth.   That incudes Ezek. 40-48 which describes the millennial temple and the earthly tribal re-allotments given to the restored nation of Israel.

 

Sorry, but the Bible clearly puts Jesus millennial reign on earth when you examine everything the Bible ha to say about the millennial kingdom in both Old and New Testaments.   You clearly are familiar with those passages.

 

So Kan, am I to understand that you don't hold to the Bible as your authority?   I ask because you seem to condemn those who do.

Yes,Jesus tells a Parable in Matthew 25:31-46 about the separation of the Sheep and Goats.The setting is the beginning of the 1000 years Millennium.Those who are believers will go right into the 1000 year Millennium.Those who are not believers will go to hades to wait for the Great White Throne judgment.

 

 

 

Bopeep, those sheep and goats are believers.

[Guest shiloh357]

No, you are wrong.   The sheep are believers.  The goats are unbelievers.   In Matt. 25, the sheep are on the right hand and the goats are on the left.   It was the goats on the left that Jesus that Jesus sent to everlasting punishment.  The goats are not believers, not by a longshot.

 

You might try reading your Bible once and a while.

[thereselittleflower]

No, you are wrong.   The sheep are believers.  The goats are unbelievers.   In Matt. 25, the sheep are on the right hand and the goats are on the left.   It was the goats on the left that Jesus that Jesus sent to everlasting punishment.  The goats are not believers, not by a longshot.

 

You might try reading your Bible once and a while.

 

 

I have studied this passage and there are clues as to who the sheep and the goats are.  I found that it was easier to understand with an story illustrating passages in the scripture regarding this parable.  I'll share it here too:

 

 

 

A Cautionary Tale

One day, a group of souls suddenly found themselves standing before the Gates of Heaven and Jesus was there before them.

Some appeared with great expectancy on their faces, others looked a little doubtful.

Jesus asked them all . . . "Did you do the will of My Father?"

One, smiling with expectancy, eagerly said "LORD! I cast out many demons in You Name!" Another shouted out, "LORD! I prophesied to many in Your Name!", and another delcared "LORD! I did mighty deeds in Your Name!", and others started chiming in with all the wonderous things they had done in His Name. 

 

Some, though, were looking around, feeling like they were on the outside, because they had never really done any of these things. A few were looking down at the ground, not daring to look up.

Jesus held up His hands for silence.

After all the clamouring had died down, and everyone was waiting in silence, Jesus said to them 

"But did you do My Father's will?"

Now, puzzled expressions began to appear on the faces of those who had just jumped in declaring the great and mighty things they had done in Jesus' Name. No one said anything for a few momments. . . . . . Then one gathered up enough bravery to ask, "What do you mean? Didn't we do the Father's will when we did all these mighty and wonderful things?" Others began to join in adding their assent to the question that was perplexing them.

Jesus waited for the murmurring to die down. Then He asked:

"Did you give a glass of water to one of these little ones in My Name?"

He waited . . hands began to go up. The ones who had been so loudly proclaiming their mighty deeds, began to look around them, their perplextion growing.

"Did you give food to one of these little ones in My Name when they were hungry?"

More hand went up . . it was dead silent. Those who had first clamoured so expectantly, grew even more perplexed as they looked around at those who were raising their hands.

"Did you clothe one of these little ones in My Hame when they were naked?"

Hands began to go up again . . Again, those who had so expectantly declared their mighty deeds at first, looked around a little concerned now, and very perplexed.

"Did you take in one of these little ones in My Name when they were a stranger?"

Again, in the silence, the soft sound of hands being raised was all that could be heard, and this time some of those who had first declared their mighty deeds, rasied their hands too . . now with a more humble expression on their faces. The others looked on, some with a growing sense of alarm; but others with a confidence that even though they didn't understand what was going on, they didbn't need to worry about such "works", for they knew they were saved by grace through faith . .these works were totally unnecessary. A smugness began to settle over them as they thought they had everthing under control.

"Did you visit one of these little ones in My Name when they were sick?"

And the scene repeated itself as the soft silent sound of hands rising in the air answered. Those who had first been so sure in their expectancy, yet had never raised their hands, found themselves divided in their reactions to the unfolding situation. Some were showing signs of fear, realizing that something was indeed wrong, and though they tried to hide it, you could see it in their eyes. The others became even more certain they had nothing to fear, for they didn't believe in works. Works couldn't save, works couldn't justify one. They had nothing to worry about! And their smugness grew.

"Did you visit one of these little ones in My Name when they were in prison?"

Again, that silent, swoosh of hands rising in the air. Again, the look of fear in the eyes of some who had not raised their hands, and the look of smug confidence increasing in the eyes of those who didn't believe works did anything at all.

When the last hand was lowered, Jesus stood there in silence, looking at each one in turn. Some who had been worried right at first, even those who had looked at the ground because they had done no mighty works, now locked eyes with Jesus and saw His smiling at them and their eyes smiled back wrapped in peace and love. 

Those who had first bragged about their mighty deeds found they couldn't look Jesus in the eye, turning away when His eyes found theirs. Those who had smuggly allowed themselves to feel confident because they "knew" that they needed no such works to be saved since faith was enough, found no smiles in Jesus' eyes for them, and could not keep their eyes locked on His. When they looked away, their eyes showed the first signs of real fear.

After all was done, Jesus spoke again:

"Those who raised your hands, come here to My right hand"

All those who had raised their hands made their way, peaceful and calm, to Jesus' right hand and stood there gazing on their Lord.

Then Jesus spoke again,

"Those who didn't raise your hands, come here and stand on My left."

Even though they were fearful of what this meant, and wanted to join the others on the right, they were compelled to obey. They gathered on His left, many nervous, some trembling.

When everyone was once again silently still, Jesus spoke again, first to those on His right, 

"When you gave one of these little ones water when they were thirsty, food when they were hungry, clothes when they were naked; when you took them in when they were a stranger, when you visited them when they were sick or in prison . . . 

Jesus paused, and looked at each and every one of those standing on His right, then He proceeded, softly and gently with great love .. .

" . . . . you did it unto Me."

They all gazed at Him with joyful awe, their faces radiant. . . . 

Jesus continued, booming with great joy . . 

"Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Enter thou into the Joy of the Lord!"

And the gates of Heaven swung open with a mighty 'swoosh', followed by the angels who came out to usher them into heaven, with rapturous expressions, shining bright.

When all had entered, the gates of heaven closed, . . . the sound echoed in the silence.

Then Jesus slowly turned His attention to those on His left, with a look of deep sadness on His face. He looked at them and said.

"When you gave not one of these little ones water when they were thirsty, food when they were hungry, clothes when they were naked; when you took them not in when they were a stranger, when you visited them not when they were sick or in prison . . . 

Jesus paused, and looked at each and every one of those standing on His left; then He proceeded, clearly and uncompromisingly .. .

" . . . . you did it not unto Me."

Fear filled the hearts and minds of those standing there, looking at the stern face of the Lord. Those who had held, to the bitter end, on to their belief that one could not be saved by works, that works were absolutely unnecessary for one's salvation, were in utter confusion. Hadn't they done what Jesus wanted? They wanted to cry out again 'Look at our ministries! Look at our mighty deeds! Look at how the power of the Holy Spirit moved through us! We brought so many souls to You!' But they could say nothing.

Jesus just looked them in the eyes, and all they could find was sternness, like steel.

The words they dreaded to hear finally came . . 

Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Go away to eternal punishment!"

And in the suddenness of the momment, with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, they found themselves flung far from Jesus and heaven . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

. . . . . . never to see either again.

A Cautionary Tale

 

Matthew 7:21-23

Matthew 25:31-46​

[Guest shiloh357]

I find it easier to understand the Bible by actually reading it and believing.   I don't interpret the Bible through someone's story.     The Bible makes it clear that the goats were the ones who did not know Jesus and were not believers.   Believers don't go to hell.

 

It's too bad that you reject the authority of the Scriptures.   God's word is our final authority on this matter.  It is the highest authority and the Christian's only authority.