When was Gen 15:6 Fulfilled?

[Guest shiloh357]

Again,

 

You don't know the Bible.    James begins the context of his discussion with, "show me your faith without works and I will show my faith by my works."   In other words,  your testimony of faith is "justified" by what you do.   James is in essence saying, "show me your faith without any accompanying actions (an impossibility) and I will show my faith with accompanying actions.   

 

James is binding Abraham to his faith.   Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son demonstrates that Abraham was indeed a man of faith.   James, in context is saying that what Abraham did in Genesis 22   is proof that what happened in Genesis 15:6 was real.   The proof of Abraham's faith mentioned in Gen. 15:6  is seen in Gen. 22.   Thus Abraham was justified by faith before God and his testimony was justified (affirmed) Gen. 22.

 

As for our faith being justified in the sight of men...   It is important because most of the time, your faith is not revealed in your words, but in your actions.   Your faith needs to be justified in the sight of men.   Otherwise, you're  a fraud.   You say one thing and do another and if you do manage to say something about God, it won't be received if your works don't justify or affirm your testimony in their sight.

[Ezra]

Doesn't "saved" and "received imputed righteousness" mean the same thing? Does it say that Abraham was justified prior to Gen 15:6 and then lost his justification and gained it back in Gen 15;6, lost it again and gained it back again in Gen 22? I just don't see the Bible saying that.

 

"Saved" and "received imputed righteousness" are identical, but in Gen 15:6 the point is being made as to why Abram received imputed righteousness (because of his faith).  It is not necessarily excluding the fact that he was already saved when he called upon the name of the LORD earlier.  And he certainly did not lose his salvation and then gain it back, since he was saved by grace and received the gift of righteousness (as do all believers).

Paul's whole point in Romans 4 what that Abraham was justified "apart from works". That is, without regards to his compliance to commands. His justification was not contingent upon his obedience.

Correct, and this passage is speaking about how men are justified (declared righteous) by God.  When we come to James, he is dealing with how others see that we are justified, and that is only by our works, since they cannot see our hearts.  As Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them".

[FresnoJoe]

This may seem to be a simple question, but think about it first.

 

James says this is his letter:

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (Referring to an event in Genesis 22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James quoting Genesis 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 James 2:12-24

 

The first question is, when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

The apostle Paul also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4

 

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Rom 4:1-6

 

The second question is, when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

 

The Moment

 

Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 (HCSB)

 

Abraham

(when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB)

 

Believed

(when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 (KJV)

 

I Believe

 

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Hebrews 11:17-19

[Tristen]

 

Hey Bcbsr, you said, “According to James the scripture that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." was not fulfilled until Gen 22 when Abraham offered Isaac in obedience to God's command.”

 

Genesis 15:4-6

⁴ And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” ⁵ Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

⁶ And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

 

Abram’s faith was in God’s promise of descendants from Abram’s “own body” (referring to Isaac). This faith was demonstrated in Abram’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac (Genesis 22). Therefore God confirmed and extended His promise.

 

Genesis 22:15-18

¹⁵ Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, ¹⁶ and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— ¹⁷ blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. ¹⁸ In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

 

 

Hebrews 11:17-19

¹⁷ By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, ¹⁸ of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” ¹⁹ concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

 

 

So the events in Genesis 22 are directly related to Abram’s faith in God’s promise of descendants from Abram’s “own body” in Genesis 15. James correctly used this event as an example that sincere faith goes beyond lip-service. James does NOT say that Abram wasn’t justified before Genesis 22 (as you claim), only that Genesis 22 demonstrated Abram’s response to faith. James simply used this event to exemplify his point - that sincere faith will be reflected in a person’s actions.

[bcbsr]

... This faith was demonstrated in Abram’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac (Genesis 22). Therefore God confirmed and extended His promise....

James correctly used this event as an example that sincere faith goes beyond lip-service. James does NOT say that Abram wasn’t justified before Genesis 22 (as you claim), only that Genesis 22 demonstrated Abram’s response to faith. James simply used this event to exemplify his point - that sincere faith will be reflected in a person’s actions.

 

That's not consistent with how every other instance of the Bible's usage of scripture being fulfilled. Furthermore James claims that what was fulfilled was not the promise of Gen 15:5, but rather Gen 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." James said that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Thus James indicates that Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Gen 22. For according to James Abraham had to do a work of faith before he could be justified. 

 

Prior to Gen 22 Abraham had faith but no works with regards to the promise of Gen 15:5. According to James faith without works is dead and as such Abraham's faith was dead prior to Gen 22. Furthermore James 2:4 "if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" Apparently not according to James. And thus James indicates that Abraham was not saved until Gen 22. 

 

That's an example of interpreting James based upon what James ACTUALLY SAID. Words mean things! People can't see this when they try to read Paul into James rather than read James out of James. 

[bcbsr]

 

This may seem to be a simple question, but think about it first.

 

James says this is his letter:

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (Referring to an event in Genesis 22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James quoting Genesis 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 James 2:12-24

 

The first question is, when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

The apostle Paul also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4

 

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Rom 4:1-6

 

The second question is, when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

 

The Moment

 

Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 (HCSB)

 

Abraham

(when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB)

 

By saying that it wasn't until Gen 22 that the Scripture was fulfilled that "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore James is saying that Abraham didn't believe until Gen 22, which is central to he argument that works are necessary to justify a person.

 

In contrast Paul indicates Abraham believed right after the promise of Gen 15:5 was given, which is central to his argument that justification is by faith alone apart from works

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually  the Bible treats "fulfilled"  in different ways.  

 

Your problem is that you are on a mission to discredit the book of James, not arrive at the truth.  In other words you will reject any argument no matter how correct it might be because you reject the book of James.   Any argument that torpedoes your attempt to prove that James is not Scripture will be rejected, not because it's wrong, but because it defeats your core argument as to why James should be rejected.

 

I think it should be apparent to you at this point, that no one is buying into your goofy, godless, fleshly theology.   WE  are the Bereans who have searched the scriptures and have rejected your heretical views.

[bcbsr]

Actually  the Bible treats "fulfilled"  in different ways.  

 

 

Every instance in the Bible which speaks of the "Scripture being fulfilled" speaks of the particular scripture as a prophecy. Thus James views Gen 15:6 as a prophecy which was not fulfilled until Gen 22, rather than a record of what actually happened in time right after the promise was given in Gen 15:5

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus used "fulfill"  in reference to Scripture to mean, "to bring to fuller expression,"  in Matt. 5:17.  Jesus wasn't referring to prophecy either.   James is not referring to Gen. 15:6 as prophecy, either.  

 

You have a one dimensional approach to Scripture.

[FresnoJoe]

This may seem to be a simple question, but think about it first.

 

James says this is his letter:

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (Referring to an event in Genesis 22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James quoting Genesis 15:6) And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 James 2:12-24

 

The first question is, when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

The apostle Paul also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4

 

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Rom 4:1-6

 

The second question is, when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled? 

 

 

The Moment

 

Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 (HCSB)

 

Abraham

(when in Abraham's life did James reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB)

 

Believed

(when in Abraham's life did Paul reckon Gen 15:6 was fulfilled?)

 

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 (KJV)

 

I Believe

 

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Hebrews 11:17-19

 

By saying that it wasn't until Gen 22 that the Scripture was fulfilled that "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore James is saying that Abraham didn't believe until Gen 22, which is central to he argument that works are necessary to justify a person.

 

In contrast Paul indicates Abraham believed right after the promise of Gen 15:5 was given, which is central to his argument that justification is by faith alone apart from works

 

~

 

Beloved, I Read "Believed" As The Key Word And Even God Said It

 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

Both Through Brother Saul

 

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 (KJV)

 

And Brother James

 

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB)

 

As I Read It

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

~

 

Not~!

 

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5