MorningGlory Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2015 I never once mentioned tradition. Also I said that its their claim that the are the on true Church. This claim of theirs is based on Jesus founding the Church with Peter as its head. If one accepts that Jesus started a Church and placed Peter at the head of that Church than their claim is true. If one rejects that Christ started a Church with Peter as head of it than that person would reject their claim of being the one true Church. My position is that I have yet seen an argument against the Catholic Church hold up. Every argument thus far started with a misrepresentation of what they believe. Purgatory being the best example. Purgatory has been brought up and not once has a person correctly identified the correct position of the Catholic Church. Even when quoting straight from the Catechism the person still misrepresented the position. But I'm not here to learn about the Catholic Church. I'm here to learn what Evangelical Christians believe. As one of those Evangelical Christians I can tell you that the practice of praying to the Virgin Mary is idolatry. Catholics DO pray to Mary and display statues of her in their homes and churches. This is not conjecture or opinion; it's the hard, cold, unvarnished truth which I have observed with my own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I don't think that Christ meant His statement in Matt. 16:18 was that He built His church on Peter... but on what was said by Peter in verse 16: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HePaidForUs Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 72 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/12/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) I never once mentioned tradition. Also I said that its their claim that the are the on true Church. This claim of theirs is based on Jesus founding the Church with Peter as its head. If one accepts that Jesus started a Church and placed Peter at the head of that Church than their claim is true. If one rejects that Christ started a Church with Peter as head of it than that person would reject their claim of being the one true Church. My position is that I have yet seen an argument against the Catholic Church hold up. Every argument thus far started with a misrepresentation of what they believe. Purgatory being the best example. Purgatory has been brought up and not once has a person correctly identified the correct position of the Catholic Church. Even when quoting straight from the Catechism the person still misrepresented the position. But I'm not here to learn about the Catholic Church. I'm here to learn what Evangelical Christians believe. As one of those Evangelical Christians I can tell you that the practice of praying to the Virgin Mary is idolatry. Catholics DO pray to Mary and display statues of her in their homes and churches. This is not conjecture or opinion; it's the hard, cold, unvarnished truth which I have observed with my own eyes. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is the HEAD of the Church. The Head of the Body. Not the Pope, in the sense that is portrayed here. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ (His representative, similar to how St. Peter was) WHEN speaking to DOCTRINAL issues only. In that sense, he is at the top of the hierarchy of the Church on Earth (the head). He has not replaced Christ as the Head of the Body though. The teaching on purgatory is simply that souls who are in a state of grace (as opposed to a state of mortal sin), but still not purified of all sin (the Catholic Church teaches we can be completely purified of all sin before leaving this Earth), will be purified in purgatory. The Church does not teach whether or not there is suffering in purgatory (officially anyways). The Church teaches that sin corrupts the soul, and that the soul must be purified. Either in this life or before entering Heaven. It is hard to understand what evangelicals believe without understanding what Catholics believe - seeing as the protestant churches all split from the Catholic Church. The question then becomes "what doctrine did they change." The foundation is still the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is a matter of what was chipped away. In essence, most protestants teach that the Bible is the Word of God and that the Holy Spirit interprets it for each individual. This argument becomes difficult when you realize thousands of different denominations say that, and they all tend to disagree with one another. Catholics do pray to the Mother of God, along with angels and other Saints. However, we ask them to pray for us to Christ - knowing that He hears their prayers for us. Idolatry is to WORSHIP a false god. We do not worship anyone but the One True God, the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit Edited June 28, 2015 by HePaidForUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HePaidForUs Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 72 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/12/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) I don't think that Christ meant His statement in Matt. 16:18 was that He built His church on Peter... but on what was said by Peter in verse 16: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Seems straightforward enough. I never debated this even when I was a protestant. It is pretty clear that He meant He was going to build His Church on Peter. No one has been able to offer an explanation for Malachi 1:11 except Alejandro, and this explanation does not convince me. Can anyone identify the sacrifice in Malachi 1:11's prophecy if it is not the Eucharist? For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. What could it be but the RC Church's offering of Christ? Edited June 28, 2015 by HePaidForUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 But still, Peter made mistakes after that soliloquy and yet the RCC says that the Pope is infallible... how do you reconcile those two disparate truths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HePaidForUs Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 72 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/12/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) But still, Peter made mistakes after that soliloquy and yet the RCC says that the Pope is infallible... how do you reconcile those two disparate truths? Peter was human, just like Popes, and capable of making mistakes. The Pope is not infallible. The Pope is infallible with regards to doctrine. “Peter is at the center of every aspect of Jesus’ ministry,” Traylor says. “There are four major points of Peter’s ministry, beginning with his confession of Jesus as the son of the living God, then his denial of Christ when he looked at Christ in the courtyard and wept in repentance. He was the chief apostle, but his flesh was weak. He was human.” The third key point in Peter’s ministry was what Traylor calls Peter’s restoration. “That’s when Jesus says, ‘Feed my sheep,’” Traylor says, adding that the fourth is when he “opened up the Gospel,” meaning Peter opened his ministry to both Jews and Gentiles. “The last we hear from Peter in the Bible is as author of I and II Peter, which reveal him as a stable and mature disciple who is about to be martyred for his faith, as predicted by Christ,” - excerpt I believe St Peter was infallible with regards to doctrine from the point in time when the Lord Jesus Christ said, "Feed my sheep" and afterwards. Of course, the fullness of the Truth had not yet come in and that must be taken into account. He was infallible with regards to revealed Truth at the time. The fullness of the Truth has been revealed to us in this age Praise God. I have seen plenty of articles where popes said things that I consider to be errors, but never when they are speaking with regards to doctrine/dogma ("discovered truth"). I can testify that my spirit has not felt this good for as long as I can remember. Confession, Communion, and asking the saints and angels in Heaven (it should be noted that all of the Church is called "saints") to pray for me has helped me A LOT with a specific infirmity I have that is a very bad infirmity in my flesh. I know that they are really praying for me and Christ is hearing their prayers. Just a few days ago, I was leading people away from the Catholic Church. I have shed many tears about that, now that I know the truth of the matter. Pride comes before the fall. I shouldn't have spoken on what I did not know for certain. I hope no one perishes as a result, because if they do - their blood is on my hands and I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. I know He can lead them back to His Church, so if you come to the Catholic Church, pray for me and the ones I lead astray please. What scares me the most is that I was telling people that anyone who simply believes in Jesus Christ will be saved, regardless of whether or not they pursue holiness and avoid mortal sin. I was telling people that even if they didn't draw near to Him and obey Him, they would still be saved even if they lived carnally and sowed in the flesh instead of the Spirit. I was confused. The Church teaches that the more we sow in the Spirit, the more we will feel God and the more we will avoid both venial and mortal sins. I see that this is true. The Church teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, btw. It is not a works salvation. Works are the inevitable result of sowing in the Spirit. I know this is true. I feel much closer to God now than a few days ago. God has given me much grace in the past few days. Christ have mercy on us all. Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our deaths. Lord Jesus, please guide us into all truth, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead us all to Heaven, especially those of us in most need of your mercy. Mother of God, I appeal to your perfect heart, please ask our Lord Jesus Christ who you watched die on the Cross to save everyone on this message board. Lord Jesus, I know you are able to. Please let your grace abound Lord. I appeal to your perfect heart. Please Lord Edited June 28, 2015 by HePaidForUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2015 I think it's time this topic was closed. Please remember, we do not allow either promotion or bashing of the catholic church. Discussions are fine, but, this one is pushing towards the line a bit too much. -Steve_S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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