The Lord Jesus Christ

[Qnts2]

SHALOM, Qnts2.

 

 

Shalom, Qnts2.

...

I am quite familiar with the Shema and say it every week! After all, I’m a Messianic Jew. The question is this: You do realize, don’t you, that the word “Adonai” is not in the Shema? That’s haShem - the Name - the Tetragrammaton in the Shema! Jews always SAY “Adonai” although it’s not really there! I was referring to the ACTUAL Hebrew word transliterated as “Adonai” or “Adonay” vs. “Adoniy."

 

I only use Strong’s Concordance because it is familiar to so many who call themselves Christian. It’s also a way to specify exactly which word one is talking about. For instance, “Adoniy” is technically found at Strong’s OT:113, although it more closely resembles the first part of both OT:137 and OT:139, “Adonay” is found at Strong’s OT:136, and the Tetragrammaton, haShem, is found at Strong’s OT:3068. What I was talking about was the Hebrew spelling of OT:113 (or OT:137a or OT:139a) and the Hebrew spelling of OT:136.

 

OT:113 'aadown (aw-done'); or (shortened) 'aadon (aw-done'); from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):

KJV - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

 

OT:136 'Adonaay (ad-o-noy'); am emphatic form of OT:113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):

KJV - (my) Lord.

 

OT:137 'Adoniy-Bezeq (ad-o''-nee-beh'-zek); from OT:113 and OT:966; lord of Bezek; Adoni-Bezek; a Canaanitish king:

KJV - Adoni-bezek.

 

OT:139 'Adoniy-Tsedeq (ad-o''-nee-tseh'-dek); from OT:113 and OT:6664; lord of justice; Adoni-Tsedek, a Canaanitish king:

KJV - Adonizedec.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

See, the only difference between the two is in the vowel pointing and pronunciation. However, the vowel pointing didn’t come along until the 8th Century! Thus, BOTH words are spelled “alef-dalet-nun-yod!” (‘-D-N-Y!) They may have been pronounced differently depending of the CONTEXT, but they are basically the SAME WORD! They are CERTAINLY within the same family of words!

 

The ending “yod” shows first-person possessive, and if you really studied Hebrew, you would know that. The transliteration “-iy” or “-aay” means “MY!” Thus, “Adoniy” means “my Lord!” The difference between the pronunciation of “Adonaay” versus the pronunciation of “Adoniy” is that “Adonaay” is the EMPHATIC form! It’s EMPHASIZED! Thus, “Adoniy” means “my Lord”; “Adonaay” means “MY (only) Lord!"

 

Actually, vowel pointing in Hebrew came long before the Masoretes. The Masoretes used the existing vowel pointing, brought it down to a standard commonality (as there were variations), and added the pointing to the Torah. Of course, the is a debate in Judaism about the date of origin of the nikkudot. Many believe the existance goes back to Mt. Sinai.

 

As far as Adoni and Adonai, they both mean my lord/My Lord. The difference as I said is that Adoni is singular and Adonai is plural. My purpose in linking to a sight with the Shema is to show the commonly used spelling of Adonai. Adonay is used by concordances and are not used in the Jewish community.

 

Just as a side note. I might be wrong but I thought you denied the Deity of Jesus? Do I have that wrong?

 

 

That’s just dumb! Show me ONE document written before the 700s that was written with vowel pointing of ANY kind! You can’t because there AREN’T ANY! That’s like the old arguments about whether the moon was made of cheese! You can argue pointless arguments all you want all day long without any evidence pro or con, but it’s a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! So, save the side-tracking for someone who cares.

 

And, you used an article to the Shema purely to show me how “Adonai” is usually transliterated into English, even though you KNOW that the word “Adonai” is not ACTUALLY found in the Hebrew of the Shema? Wow. What did THAT prove? Answer: It proved NOTHING of consequence!

 

Look, I have a very specific method of transliteration that many people do NOT use. SO WHAT? It was developed from the transliteration schema of Biblesoft’s PC Study Bible program. With it, I can tell you how a Hebrew word was spelled by my transliteration schema, most of the time right down to the simple vowel pointing: A vowel beginning a word means “alef” ( ‘ ) is at the beginning of the word; an “A” or “a” stands for the “patach” vowel sound; a “D” or “d” stands for the “dalet"; the “O” or “o” stands for the “cholem" vowel sound; the “N” or “n” stands for a “nun” (or “nun sofit” at the end of the word); an “Aa” or “aa” stands for the “qamets” vowel sound, and the “Y” or “y” stands for the “yod."

 

So, when I write “Adonaay” the transliteration tells me EXACTLY how I found the word written in the Hebrew text, "alef-(patach)-dalet-(cholem)-nun-(qamets)-yod." The only things it doesn’t tell me are the finer points of chataf segol, chataf qamets, and chataf tsere, the combinations of the shva and the segol, qamets, and tsere, respectively.

 

How can “Adonai” be plural? It’s not following ANY of the rules for a plural word in masculine (-iym) or feminine (-owt)! Sorry, but I don’t know where you’re getting your information. Now, “ELOHIYM" is plural, but not “Adonai."

 

Yes, you have that wrong; I do NOT deny the deity of the Logos; HOWEVER, that being said, one must also face the fact that Yeshua`, while being the Logos incarnate, is LIMITED by the body formed for Him! He’s limited to a particular place, to a particular volume of space, to a particular weight, to particular dimensions of length, width, and height, to a particular time period in history, and to the prophecies regarding that body! Even today in His glorified body, He is still bound by those limitations. That’s why it was said of Him that He would return just as His disciples saw Him leave. 

 

 

To use the fact/analogy that Yochanan used in the book of Yeshua`s Revelation (21:23), while God is light (Greek: foos), Yeshua` is the LAMP (Greek: luchnos)! Today, we might say that Yeshua` is the lightbulb - the localized SOURCE of that light! As such, Yeshua` is both God and man, but by limiting Himself to our frame of reference, He is indeed the LINK between God and man, the Advocate for sinners and the Mediator between God and man.

 

Well, you just proved that you do not know basic Hebrew grammar. Adonai is plural. Adoni is singular.

 

Just a hint. Hebrew uses suffixes for pronouns. The suffix will indicate not only the pronoun but also whether the noun is plural or singular. Adonai means literally my lords but when combined with singular verbs which by the grammatical rules must match the noun, when referring to God, the verb is singular which is unique for a reference to the one true God. Also, while Elochim is plural, so is Elochenu. Elochenu has a pronomial suffix and means literally 'our gods' but almost always refers to our God and is used with a singular verb or adverb to indicate when it refers to God.

 

I told you why I used the Shema. To show the common Jewish spelling of Adonai. I also used the Shema because it is the best known Jewish prayer. There is no rule against using a non-common spelling since it is a transliteration as long as it approximates the ennunciation of the word, but Jewish people who are familiar with Hebrew transliteration are used to Adonai.  

[Guest shiloh357]

Litteflower,

 

Retro denies Jesus is God and has made the claim in more than one thread.   That's what I am addressing.    I am not saying Jesus was not limited.  I am saying that he is lying when he says that he isn't claiming Jesus is not/was not God.

 

Two words for you, littleflower:  READING COMPREHENSION

[thereselittleflower]

Litteflower,

 

Retro denies Jesus is God and has made the claim in more than one thread.   That's what I am addressing.    I am not saying Jesus was not limited.  I am saying that he is lying when he says that he isn't claiming Jesus is not/was not God.

 

Two words for you, littleflower:  READING COMPREHENSION

 

 

Can you point to a post of his that does so?

 

And again, do you think being mean to people, hitting them over the head with sledge hammers is going to convince anyone you're right?

[thereselittleflower]

I've read a few of Retro's posts.   

 

It seems to me this is all much ado about nothing.

 

He's right in that the individual words themselves, the way they were ordinarily used,   in:   Lord Jesus Christ  do not in any way tell us of his divinity.  

 

Yet because he has dared to say so, some are up in arms and have become rabid in their denouncement, for, to them it is a very attack on Christ's divinity.

 

It's not.

 

 

 

What pretty much EVERYONE seems to be missing here is that it's  NOT about what the individual words say.

 

It's about what the PHRASE means TO CHRISTIANS, how it is used BY CHRISTIANS, in a CHRISTIAN culture.

 

 

Christians understand there many lords in history.  Christians understand that to call Jesus Lord means more than a lord over a vassal.    Christians understand that when they call Jesus Lord they are calling him Lord in his divinity, not just as an ordinary lord.

 

 

Christians also understand that to call Jesus "Christ" they are referring to his messiahship not as an ordinary one, but as an extraordinary one, a unique one, based in his divinity and his humanity. 

 

It doesn't matter how others used the words.

 

 

 - That's what's being missed here.

 

Let me repeat that:

 

 

It doesn't matter how others used the words.

 

 

All that matters is how CHRISTIANS use the words.

 

 

And that's the end of the story.

[Retrobyter]

And, a happy Shabbat shalom to you, too!

 

That's a lie, Retro...  You have repeatedly denied the deity of Jesus.   You need to tell the truth.   You have clearly denied, multiple times, that Jesus is God.

 

You’re the one who chooses to lie about me. I have said over and over and over again, that the SCRIPTURES do NOT call Him "God!” They call Him the “SON of God!” Get over it! And, guess who said it the most often? It was the DEMONS who most called Him the “Son of God!” Look it up for yourself!

 

You’ve chosen FAR too complicated a subject (the Trinity) to "pick nits” about, bro’! If you’re going to “go there” with me, you’ll likely get lost in the points I’ll make, AND you’ll need a better handle on the simple vocabulary of the Scriptures, first. And, one of my highest priorities and my first rule in such a discussion is this: NO THEOLOGY ALLOWED! That is, I will entertain NO arguments that extend from theological premises! (Believe me, I’ve had my FILL of them! I am SICK of them!) All arguments must be made SOLELY from the Scriptures! And, if you can’t find your argument from the Scriptures only but have to resort to theological rhetoric, then you have no argument! And, you might be surprised by how much of your arguments come from a theological premise!

 

Also, if one is going to make PRECISE arguments from the Scriptures, one cannot use some arbitrary English version to do it, not even the good-ol’, revered KJV! (Someone once quipped, “Well if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it’s good enough for me!”) One must at least ground the argument in the Greek text of the New Testament or in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. No matter how good the English version may be, it was God’s infallible Word translated by fallible men, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE of infallible inspiration for ANY English version of the Bible!

 

So, if you still want to rumble, have at it, but you’ve been fairly warned.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, thereselittleflower.

 

I've read a few of Retro's posts.   

 

It seems to me this is all much ado about nothing.

 

He's right in that the individual words themselves, the way they were ordinarily used,   in:   Lord Jesus Christ  do not in any way tell us of his divinity.  

 

Yet because he has dared to say so, some are up in arms and have become rabid in their denouncement, for, to them it is a very attack on Christ's divinity.

 

It's not.

 

 

 

What pretty much EVERYONE seems to be missing here is that it's  NOT about what the individual words say.

 

It's about what the PHRASE means TO CHRISTIANS, how it is used BY CHRISTIANS, in a CHRISTIAN culture.

 

 

Christians understand there many lords in history.  Christians understand that to call Jesus Lord means more than a lord over a vassal.    Christians understand that when they call Jesus Lord they are calling him Lord in his divinity, not just as an ordinary lord.

 

 

Christians also understand that to call Jesus "Christ" they are referring to his messiahship not as an ordinary one, but as an extraordinary one, a unique one, based in his divinity and his humanity. 

 

It doesn't matter how others used the words.

 

 

 - That's what's being missed here.

 

Let me repeat that:

 

 

It doesn't matter how others used the words.

 

 

All that matters is how CHRISTIANS use the words.

 

 

And that's the end of the story.

 

Ahh.... THANK YOU, SISTER! Your words are a breath of fresh air for me! It’s good to see that SOME understand what I’m saying!

[Qnts2]

And, a happy Shabbat shalom to you, too!

 

That's a lie, Retro...  You have repeatedly denied the deity of Jesus.   You need to tell the truth.   You have clearly denied, multiple times, that Jesus is God.

 

You’re the one who chooses to lie about me. I have said over and over and over again, that the SCRIPTURES do NOT call Him "God!” They call Him the “SON of God!” Get over it! And, guess who said it the most often? It was the DEMONS who most called Him the “Son of God!” Look it up for yourself!

 

You’ve chosen FAR too complicated a subject (the Trinity) to "pick nits” about, bro’! If you’re going to “go there” with me, you’ll likely get lost in the points I’ll make, AND you’ll need a better handle on the simple vocabulary of the Scriptures, first. And, one of my highest priorities and my first rule in such a discussion is this: NO THEOLOGY ALLOWED! That is, I will entertain NO arguments that extend from theological premises! (Believe me, I’ve had my FILL of them! I am SICK of them!) All arguments must be made SOLELY from the Scriptures! And, if you can’t find your argument from the Scriptures only but have to resort to theological rhetoric, then you have no argument! And, you might be surprised by how much of your arguments come from a theological premise!

 

Also, if one is going to make PRECISE arguments from the Scriptures, one cannot use some arbitrary English version to do it, not even the good-ol’, revered KJV! (Someone once quipped, “Well if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it’s good enough for me!”) One must at least ground the argument in the Greek text of the New Testament or in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. No matter how good the English version may be, it was God’s infallible Word translated by fallible men, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE of infallible inspiration for ANY English version of the Bible!

 

So, if you still want to rumble, have at it, but you’ve been fairly warned.

 

Scriptures do call Him God.

 

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

....

 

¹⁴ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

The Word is Jesus. The Word was God.

 

I believe John is using this saying in reference to common Jewish terminology of that day. The Word, The Word of God, Memra, was an expression used wherever in scripture God manifested on earth. The first such occurrence is in Genesis, when the Spirit hovered over the waters during creation. Jesus is a manifestation of God on earth and is credited with being the Word, active in the creation. 

 

So, rather then dancing around. Clearly state, Jesus is God.

 

I asked you initially because you said you were a Messianic Jew. The three major Messianic Jewish organizations, the MJAA, the UMJC, and the AMC, all state that Jesus is God, and reject a Jewish person as being a Messianic Jew, if the do not believe that Jesus is God.

[thereselittleflower]

And, a happy Shabbat shalom to you, too!

 

That's a lie, Retro...  You have repeatedly denied the deity of Jesus.   You need to tell the truth.   You have clearly denied, multiple times, that Jesus is God.

 

You’re the one who chooses to lie about me. I have said over and over and over again, that the SCRIPTURES do NOT call Him "God!” They call Him the “SON of God!” Get over it! And, guess who said it the most often? It was the DEMONS who most called Him the “Son of God!” Look it up for yourself!

 

You’ve chosen FAR too complicated a subject (the Trinity) to "pick nits” about, bro’! If you’re going to “go there” with me, you’ll likely get lost in the points I’ll make, AND you’ll need a better handle on the simple vocabulary of the Scriptures, first. And, one of my highest priorities and my first rule in such a discussion is this: NO THEOLOGY ALLOWED! That is, I will entertain NO arguments that extend from theological premises! (Believe me, I’ve had my FILL of them! I am SICK of them!) All arguments must be made SOLELY from the Scriptures! And, if you can’t find your argument from the Scriptures only but have to resort to theological rhetoric, then you have no argument! And, you might be surprised by how much of your arguments come from a theological premise!

 

Also, if one is going to make PRECISE arguments from the Scriptures, one cannot use some arbitrary English version to do it, not even the good-ol’, revered KJV! (Someone once quipped, “Well if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it’s good enough for me!”) One must at least ground the argument in the Greek text of the New Testament or in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. No matter how good the English version may be, it was God’s infallible Word translated by fallible men, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE of infallible inspiration for ANY English version of the Bible!

 

So, if you still want to rumble, have at it, but you’ve been fairly warned.

 

 

The early christians were not sola scriptura.  There is no verse in the scriptures which say that everything is in scripture.      

 

There is a verse which says we are to hold to both what was written AND what was taught verbally.   What was written is in our scriptures.  But scriptures are one side of the coin.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15

 

Therefore, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold on to the traditions that we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.

 

 

The divinity of Jesus is not so openly declared as you would like.  God confounds the wise with the foolish things of this world.   And so the "ALL TRUTH" promised by Jesus to the Apostles by the power of the Holy Spirit was delivered to the church both in written and in verbal form.  

 

John 16:13

 

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you [the Apotles] into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

 

The New Testament scriptures do not teach christanity 101.   The books of the New Testament were written to people who were already believers, already taught the foundations of the christian faith, VERBALLY by the Apostles.    When you read New Testament scripture you are reading what was written to encourage christians in their faith, to help them move from the milk of the word (delivered verbally) to more mature understanding of God and His will and ways, to help christians ALREADY TAUGHT the christian faith to grow spiritually, and to correct when necessary  and even go over some of the foundational teachings again.

 

Not everything is clearly spelled out in scripture.  God never intended them to be.    

 

But even in scripture we see bits and pieces of teachings such as the divinity of Christ spoken of.

 

As Q posted above,    

 

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

....

 

¹⁴ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

 

As Jesus said 

 

 

John 8:24

 

That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins."

 

 

 

John 18:6

 

And when he said unto them, I AM, they went backward and fell to the ground.

 

 

 

In the Aramaic scriptures:

 

 

John 18:6

 

And when Yeshua said to them, “I AM THE LIVING GOD”, they went backward and fell to the ground.

 

 

 

 

John 8:58

 

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

 

 

Moses:

 

Exodus 3:14,

 

"And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

 

 

 

 

 

 

As Thomas said:

 

John 20:28

 

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

 

And prophecy said:

 

Matthew 1:23

 

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

 

 

The Pharisees understood his claim of divinity:

 

John 5:18,

 

"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

 

 

John 10:30-33,

 

"I and the Father are one."  31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.  32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"  33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

 

 

Paul

 

Col. 2:9,

 

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

 

Hebrews:

 

Heb. 1:8,

 

"But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."

 

 

 

 

Jesus is most definitely called God in scripture.

 

 

This is the ancient christian faith.     Why do you want something different?

[Guest shiloh357]

Retro, I have not lied at all.   Jesus IS called God in Scripture in numerous places.

 

In addition,  "Son of God"   actually means that Jesus is God.  It is a statement of Jesus' deity.   So yeah, I can "rumble"  if you like.  I am better at defending the deity of Jesus than a false teacher like you can attack the deity of Jesus.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Qnts2.

 

...

 

 

Well, you just proved that you do not know basic Hebrew grammar. Adonai is plural. Adoni is singular.

 

Just a hint. Hebrew uses suffixes for pronouns. The suffix will indicate not only the pronoun but also whether the noun is plural or singular. Adonai means literally my lords but when combined with singular verbs which by the grammatical rules must match the noun, when referring to God, the verb is singular which is unique for a reference to the one true God. Also, while Elochim is plural, so is Elochenu. Elochenu has a pronomial suffix and means literally 'our gods' but almost always refers to our God and is used with a singular verb or adverb to indicate when it refers to God.

 

I told you why I used the Shema. To show the common Jewish spelling of Adonai. I also used the Shema because it is the best known Jewish prayer. There is no rule against using a non-common spelling since it is a transliteration as long as it approximates the ennunciation of the word, but Jewish people who are familiar with Hebrew transliteration are used to Adonai.  

 

 

Okay, the Shema first: I can overlook this faux pas, because I understand now where you are coming from. It’s just that I wish you had used a verse of Scripture or another such prayer that actually used the true word “Adonai” (“Adonaay”) rather than the Tetragrammaton set to the vowel pointing for “Adonai.” So, let’s just set that aside.

 

Apparently, you’re saying that this is an instant of the plural form of “Adon” (“Aadown”) in the CONSTRUCT STATE before adding the “-yod" ending for the first person singular pronoun, right? I get it now. In that way, I will admit that “Adonaay” is a plural word. (I had forgotten that rule of plurals.) So, I’ve proven that no one is perfect, not even "Retrobyter.” My upbringing was not focused on the Hebrew language, and I had to learn it on my own much later. It’s not that I “do not know basic Hebrew grammar”; it’s that I don’t know basic Hebrew grammar WELL. When what you said reminded me of this fact, I looked it up and there IS one such case in Genesis 19:2 where the word “Adonay” (with a second patach instead of a qamets) was translated “my lords” in the KJV.

 

Now, lest you become haughty in your victory, remember that “Qnts2” isn’t perfect, either. Notice above how many times you spell “God” in transliterated Hebrew as “Elochim” and “our God" in transliterated Hebrew as “Elochenu?” The spelling of the word is with a “hei,” not a “chet.” “Hei” is usually transliterated as an “h” while “chet” is usually transliterated as a “ch” (and sometimes, just an “h”). So, the transliterations should be “Elohim” and “Eloheinu,” but that, too, is a minor point. 

 

Can we just get beyond all this and be friends as well as brothers?

 

We’re off track.