what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[Guest Thallasa]

God is just not that simple...

 

We humans, with out itty bitty, sin-infected brains, try so hard to understand God...but we can't. We can't even begin to grasp Him, His Way, or even His Word which we've been scrutinizing for centuries. We find disequalibrium so unbearable that we try to understand an infinite God through the tiny lens of our understanding and experience. We are wired to find answers to questions we can't answer...and that usually brings satisfaction in the material world...but it will never be so with God.

 

If we were able to see beyond the tiny box we so often attempt to place God inside of, we would see theology way beyond our understanding. Some answers may not be completely "black and white" with God. He has "colors" we simply cannot see.

 

 

Please pardon my attempts at meaningful metaphor. I really can't find words to express what is rolling around my head on this matter.

Well for me this is the BEST post I have read in a long time;It is clear that God's Spirit is working through

you . There are so  many who arrogantly 'judge' others souls and assume to be perfect translators of God's Word.

Certainly it is very freeing to be able to read and discuss the bible liberally ,but too many assume that their version is the only one .Over the years we have come to the a 'center of truth ' that is Jesus is God, and He is the second persona of Himself that God has chosen to reveal  to us, in order that we might join him in the life eternal .As we look around us at the world as it is today we have to try to understand how to apply the gospels in that this context ,without taking our eyes from Jesus at all times ,but we must in our relations with others while stating the biiblecontext ,not assume to know the finer détails of God's plans ,except where it is totally blatantly evident .

Personally I think it is possible God reveals Himself to others in His Essence ,and without knowing His name, those to whom He reveals Himself love Him ,and are transformed by Him . Someone  will say no, I'm sure ,but God does reveal more to some than to others ;and some assume that only through the bible, you can know God .If one meets someone ,relates to them ,shares with them ,does knowing their name change much .Perhaps it adds to the depth of their relationship ,allows it to deepen ,and prolonge ,but does it change the feeling ,the love ? 

 

Did it not happen in the O.T. ,and was that not the same God (Jesus) who revealed Himself to the ancients ?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Thallasa

[Guest Thallasa]

Littleflower,

My dear Shiloh.  We have been over this many times already.

You are simply wrong again as you have been wrong about everything you have ever said about Catholicism.   You have filled your heart with the lies of others and perpetuate those same lies.    This grieves my heart and I am sure it grieves the Holy Spirit as well.

I haven't been wrong at all. I have posted from Catholic websites and I am operating from your posts and from Scripture.  I have not posted from one anti-Catholic website.  Paganism is what it is.  Praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture (Deut. 18:18-20).  You pray to those who have passed away and are in strict violation of the Scriptures.   THAT is what grieves the Holy Spirit.  Roman Catholicism isn't Christian.  God has nothing to do with the RCC it is not His Church and never was.

You act as though Catholics expect the Saint to answer their prayer.   

That is not how it works.

You ask others to intercede for you.  Do you expect the one you ask to intercede for  you to answer your prayer?    

No.

That is a lie.   I have previously, in this thread posted prayers that call on saints, Mary and the archangel, Michael for help/assistance.  They are not merely asking for intercession but asking the saints, Mary and Michael to help them/protect them.   The idea of a "patron" saint is the idea that this patron saint is a protector/guardian over an area of our life.  So there are prayers to saints and angels and there is an expectation of more than simple intercession from  them. So, I don't know who you think you're fooling.  

Do you ask others to pray for you Shiloh?

Do you pray for others?

Why do you do so if you can pray directly to an all-knowing God who hears every word we speak?    How is asking others to pray for you not a step backwards?

 That isn't the same thing.   First of all, they have not passed away.  So I am not engaging in the pagan, godless sin of praying to dead people.  Secondly, intercession by us who are still on this earth is commanded.  It is not merely a fulfillment of a request.

Moreover, the RCC isn't Christian.  Cradle to grave Catholics don't go to heaven because you can't get the true Gospel from the RCC.  The RCC teaches that you have to make yourself worthy of heaven.  And that is the opposite of the Gospel.

So your "saints" are not in heaven, neither are your popes.  So praying to them is futile.

Your vision is so clouded by false images and ideas of what you do not yet understand.

I understand perfectly.   I am not brainwashed by your cult and its attempt to kosher a pig, to trying foist its heresies on the Bible.

 

This is the kind of attitude and post which is hateful .You begin well sometimes ,by giving facts that I would agree with ,but end with a hatefest with untruths based on your ignorance of history ,reality of society, and  of the RCC If correct you will be believed and listened to ,but you sound so judgemental that you seem to be a Pharisee who puts himself above the publican ,and for whom charity is a bad word .

To say that Catholics throghout history are not saved is a LIE .Without the RCC you would not have any christian Church ,no society .As it is full of human beings ,men like you who thought themselves  superior morally and intellectually it had problems ,and in recent centuries instead of taking the opportunity to correct errors has continued in them,the worst being the underlining of the infallibility of the popes in 1870 .

The number of Saints born from being in the RCC who believed in and followed Christ in true charity is incalculable(  Not all pray to people ) .Millions and millions anyway .As for Protestants welI won't go there ,but if reading and knowing the bible makes a christian only ,then why were they so lacking in Grace so many of them  . I would go so far as to say  that without many in  RCC  our world would have collapsed a long time go as I see no Protestant Church  which holds up so well .

We are now in the time of the end which is happening over time and not in one big bang ,and all beliefs and behaviours are being scrutinized   Those in the RCC on the outskirts are most critical of their Church .Those who are busy condemning others are in the greatest danger .As you know there is a difference between quoting the bible and taking judgement on others as you do all the time .A dangerous occupation in my opinion .I have no idea whom God will let in ,although one can 'see fruits' ,so better to get ready oneself .

As Hemingway said " one knows not for whom the bell tolls" ,his literary way of saying do not judge ,it might be you who is condemned .

Edited October 1, 2015 by Thallasa

[Guest shiloh357]

Littleflower,

My dear Shiloh.  We have been over this many times already.

You are simply wrong again as you have been wrong about everything you have ever said about Catholicism.   You have filled your heart with the lies of others and perpetuate those same lies.    This grieves my heart and I am sure it grieves the Holy Spirit as well.

I haven't been wrong at all. I have posted from Catholic websites and I am operating from your posts and from Scripture.  I have not posted from one anti-Catholic website.  Paganism is what it is.  Praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture (Deut. 18:18-20).  You pray to those who have passed away and are in strict violation of the Scriptures.   THAT is what grieves the Holy Spirit.  Roman Catholicism isn't Christian.  God has nothing to do with the RCC it is not His Church and never was.

You act as though Catholics expect the Saint to answer their prayer.   

That is not how it works.

You ask others to intercede for you.  Do you expect the one you ask to intercede for  you to answer your prayer?    

No.

That is a lie.   I have previously, in this thread posted prayers that call on saints, Mary and the archangel, Michael for help/assistance.  They are not merely asking for intercession but asking the saints, Mary and Michael to help them/protect them.   The idea of a "patron" saint is the idea that this patron saint is a protector/guardian over an area of our life.  So there are prayers to saints and angels and there is an expectation of more than simple intercession from  them. So, I don't know who you think you're fooling.  

Do you ask others to pray for you Shiloh?

Do you pray for others?

Why do you do so if you can pray directly to an all-knowing God who hears every word we speak?    How is asking others to pray for you not a step backwards?

 That isn't the same thing.   First of all, they have not passed away.  So I am not engaging in the pagan, godless sin of praying to dead people.  Secondly, intercession by us who are still on this earth is commanded.  It is not merely a fulfillment of a request.

Moreover, the RCC isn't Christian.  Cradle to grave Catholics don't go to heaven because you can't get the true Gospel from the RCC.  The RCC teaches that you have to make yourself worthy of heaven.  And that is the opposite of the Gospel.

So your "saints" are not in heaven, neither are your popes.  So praying to them is futile.

Your vision is so clouded by false images and ideas of what you do not yet understand.

I understand perfectly.   I am not brainwashed by your cult and its attempt to kosher a pig, to trying foist its heresies on the Bible.

 

This is the kind of attitude and post which is hateful .You begin well sometimes ,by giving facts that I would agree with ,but end with hatefest with untruths based on your ignorance of history ,reality of society and  of the RCC it correct and you will be believed and listened to ,but you sound so judgemental that you seem to be a Pharisee who puts himself above the publican ,and for whom charity is a bad word .

To say that Catholics throghout history are not saved is a LIE .Without the RCC you would not have any christian Church ,no society .As it is full of human beings ,men like you who thought themselves  superior morally and intellectually it had problems ,and in recent centuries instead of taking the opportunity to coeect errors has continued in them,the worst being the iunderling of the infallibility of the popes in 1870 .

The number of Saints born from being in the RCC who believed in and followed Christ in true charity is incalculable(  Not all pray to people ) .Millions and millions anyway .As for Protestants welI won't go there ,but if reading and knowing the bible makes a christian only ,then why were they so lacking in Grace so many of them  ,I would go so far as to say  that without many in  RCC  our world would have collapsed a long time go as I see no Protestant Church  which holds up so well .

We are now in the time of the end which is happening over time and not in one big bang ,and all beliefs and behaviours are being scrutinized   Those in the RCC on the outskirts are most critical of their Church .Those who are busy condemning others are in the greatest danger .As you know there is a difference between quoting the bible and taking judgement on others as you do all the time .A dangerous occupation in my opinion .I have no idea whom God will let in ,although one can 'see fruits' ,so better to get ready oneself .

As Hemingway said " one knows not for whom the bell tolls" ,his literary way of saying do not judge ,it might be you who is condemned .

Nothing I have said is a lie.   The RCC isn't Christian and did not preserve Christianity.  It persecuted true Christians who didn't adhere to RCC doctrine and didn't submit to the RCC.   It is those Christians outside the RCC who preserved the true Church of Jesus Christ not the Christless, spiritually bankrupt RCC.

[Your closest friendnt]

A big question is here,, 

every minute many people going to die.. most of them are not hear the gospel gospel in their life time,,

what is the way for them,,?

God is not allowed them to hear gospel even one time in their whole life time

without hearing how they face the judging to go to hell?

is God is not gracious?

please share your views and faith on this topic,..

 

As a preacher i know some facts,, 

but i want to put some points here which points raised from non believers

 

1. How God can judge them to send to hell?

 

2. Many people are there in tribes and all generations who can not understand the God's call (without telling to them), so they face judgement?

 

3. Many people never hear the gospel of Christ who shed blood for them,, is there is any other way without blood of Christ?

 

please share your views which can help to other christian people and new people ,,, also to some ministers too,,

I can see you put a lot of thought into your reply, and I am grateful of your commitment.  Unlike you, I don't believe God needs to give knowledge of the bible to someone who has passed without ever hearing scripture.  I believe, as it says in the verses I provided, that those who have not heard, in their heart, knows through nature, that there is a God and they will follow His leading in their heart, though they do not know His name, are His and will be judged accordingly by Jesus.  Scripture tells us that God makes Himself known to everyone through His creation, and those who see Him in His work, and follows the leading of God in their lives, will, by their choice, obey His leading.  You see, God is far above us in every way and does know the end of all.  Just by the person listening to Him and following Him, without knowing scripture, speaks volumes of the heart of the person.

How I wish what you say is truth, then the good news to those who know that there is God will be to have and maintain a good consience.      And to those who have a good consience, the good news will be to know that there is God. 

Then many will be saved who have not believe in Jesus Christ. 

i am convince that's not the message Paul is trying to get through with this passage, 

I know also, that's not what you believe and that's not what you teach, but that's how it comes out from your statement.

Those people are not saved. No one can be saved, by believing there is God and having a good consience. 

No one can be under the blood of Jesus Christ by applying those two principals. And no one can receive the spirit of Christ this way. And no one can be a heir or co-heir of the heavens together with Jesus Christ. 

Sorry but not the teaching of Paul of how we inherit heavens.

 

How can one believe in Jesus if they have never heard of Jesus before?  Notice that Romans 2:14-16 speak of those who never heard scripture for they did not have the law.  Yet, they, in their hearts, do according to the law.  Remember what was said in Matthew 22:34-40, when Jesus was asked “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”, his reply was  "Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”" 

Do take not that Jesus was being asked about the law.  Jesus looks into the hearts of each person, and judges them accordingl

Jesus more than once has made clear that,

a) that when someone denies that Jesus Christ has died for our sins, only then that individual is in their sins, but still is call to the faith all time, so as to be in the life, and have the forgiveness of sins.

b) if someone believes in Jesus Christ, then he is in the life and not in their sins. Has the forgiveness of sins, and belongs to the new inheritance, the heavenly one.

c) the ones who never had the chance to make their decision, by reason of ignorance of the Gospel that God has given pardon to the world, through the death of his son Jesus Christ, who died for all, and as they are, at the moment that they hear the Gospel of Jesus, they are call to believed and God accepts their faith to give them eternal life. and forgiveness of sins and a heavenly place.

Those people (who never had the chance to make their decision) are not in their sins, and are not condemn, because they don't have the denial, but at the same time they are not in the spirit of God, they are in neither one place. 

They are not in Hell, together with those who have the denial of Jesus, and they are not in the heaven, together with those who have the faith of Jesus.

The devil has been judge has lost his authority to take the people.

Their now two inheritance for mankind, not just one. Jesus has the keys of Hades, or Hell, and the Devil has to wait for the judgement of Jesus to decide who has denied to believed in him, that's the only ones the Devil gets the ones with the denial.. 

So God must have a way for the ones who did not hear the Gospel while the lived, so that they will be able to hear the Gospel after they died and be able to make their decision, whether to believed in the Christ of God or not. So they can appear before Jesus Christ to be judge according to their faith in him.

 Heavens belongs to Jesus and those who have believed in him can only enter the Heavens.

Jesus would like to take all mankind to heavens, he has died for all. But he can not, heavens is a holy place, only those Holy in his name can enter Heavens.

[thereselittleflower]

Littleflower,

My dear Shiloh.  We have been over this many times already.

You are simply wrong again as you have been wrong about everything you have ever said about Catholicism.   You have filled your heart with the lies of others and perpetuate those same lies.    This grieves my heart and I am sure it grieves the Holy Spirit as well.

I haven't been wrong at all. I have posted from Catholic websites and I am operating from your posts and from Scripture.  I have not posted from one anti-Catholic website.  Paganism is what it is.  Praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture (Deut. 18:18-20).  You pray to those who have passed away and are in strict violation of the Scriptures.   THAT is what grieves the Holy Spirit.  Roman Catholicism isn't Christian.  God has nothing to do with the RCC it is not His Church and never was.

You act as though Catholics expect the Saint to answer their prayer.   

That is not how it works.

You ask others to intercede for you.  Do you expect the one you ask to intercede for  you to answer your prayer?    

No.

That is a lie.   I have previously, in this thread posted prayers that call on saints, Mary and the archangel, Michael for help/assistance.  They are not merely asking for intercession but asking the saints, Mary and Michael to help them/protect them.   The idea of a "patron" saint is the idea that this patron saint is a protector/guardian over an area of our life.  So there are prayers to saints and angels and there is an expectation of more than simple intercession from  them. So, I don't know who you think you're fooling.  

Do you ask others to pray for you Shiloh?

Do you pray for others?

Why do you do so if you can pray directly to an all-knowing God who hears every word we speak?    How is asking others to pray for you not a step backwards?

 That isn't the same thing.   First of all, they have not passed away.  So I am not engaging in the pagan, godless sin of praying to dead people.  Secondly, intercession by us who are still on this earth is commanded.  It is not merely a fulfillment of a request.

Moreover, the RCC isn't Christian.  Cradle to grave Catholics don't go to heaven because you can't get the true Gospel from the RCC.  The RCC teaches that you have to make yourself worthy of heaven.  And that is the opposite of the Gospel.

So your "saints" are not in heaven, neither are your popes.  So praying to them is futile.

Your vision is so clouded by false images and ideas of what you do not yet understand.

I understand perfectly.   I am not brainwashed by your cult and its attempt to kosher a pig, to trying foist its heresies on the Bible.

 

This is the kind of attitude and post which is hateful .You begin well sometimes ,by giving facts that I would agree with ,but end with hatefest with untruths based on your ignorance of history ,reality of society and  of the RCC it correct and you will be believed and listened to ,but you sound so judgemental that you seem to be a Pharisee who puts himself above the publican ,and for whom charity is a bad word .

To say that Catholics throghout history are not saved is a LIE .Without the RCC you would not have any christian Church ,no society .As it is full of human beings ,men like you who thought themselves  superior morally and intellectually it had problems ,and in recent centuries instead of taking the opportunity to coeect errors has continued in them,the worst being the iunderling of the infallibility of the popes in 1870 .

The number of Saints born from being in the RCC who believed in and followed Christ in true charity is incalculable(  Not all pray to people ) .Millions and millions anyway .As for Protestants welI won't go there ,but if reading and knowing the bible makes a christian only ,then why were they so lacking in Grace so many of them  ,I would go so far as to say  that without many in  RCC  our world would have collapsed a long time go as I see no Protestant Church  which holds up so well .

We are now in the time of the end which is happening over time and not in one big bang ,and all beliefs and behaviours are being scrutinized   Those in the RCC on the outskirts are most critical of their Church .Those who are busy condemning others are in the greatest danger .As you know there is a difference between quoting the bible and taking judgement on others as you do all the time .A dangerous occupation in my opinion .I have no idea whom God will let in ,although one can 'see fruits' ,so better to get ready oneself .

As Hemingway said " one knows not for whom the bell tolls" ,his literary way of saying do not judge ,it might be you who is condemned .

I fear for the souls of those who condemn others, especially those who make it a priority in their lives.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Littleflower,

My dear Shiloh.  We have been over this many times already.

You are simply wrong again as you have been wrong about everything you have ever said about Catholicism.   You have filled your heart with the lies of others and perpetuate those same lies.    This grieves my heart and I am sure it grieves the Holy Spirit as well.

I haven't been wrong at all. I have posted from Catholic websites and I am operating from your posts and from Scripture.  I have not posted from one anti-Catholic website.  Paganism is what it is.  Praying to the dead is forbidden in Scripture (Deut. 18:18-20).  You pray to those who have passed away and are in strict violation of the Scriptures.   THAT is what grieves the Holy Spirit.  Roman Catholicism isn't Christian.  God has nothing to do with the RCC it is not His Church and never was.

You act as though Catholics expect the Saint to answer their prayer.   

That is not how it works.

You ask others to intercede for you.  Do you expect the one you ask to intercede for  you to answer your prayer?    

No.

That is a lie.   I have previously, in this thread posted prayers that call on saints, Mary and the archangel, Michael for help/assistance.  They are not merely asking for intercession but asking the saints, Mary and Michael to help them/protect them.   The idea of a "patron" saint is the idea that this patron saint is a protector/guardian over an area of our life.  So there are prayers to saints and angels and there is an expectation of more than simple intercession from  them. So, I don't know who you think you're fooling.  

Do you ask others to pray for you Shiloh?

Do you pray for others?

Why do you do so if you can pray directly to an all-knowing God who hears every word we speak?    How is asking others to pray for you not a step backwards?

 That isn't the same thing.   First of all, they have not passed away.  So I am not engaging in the pagan, godless sin of praying to dead people.  Secondly, intercession by us who are still on this earth is commanded.  It is not merely a fulfillment of a request.

Moreover, the RCC isn't Christian.  Cradle to grave Catholics don't go to heaven because you can't get the true Gospel from the RCC.  The RCC teaches that you have to make yourself worthy of heaven.  And that is the opposite of the Gospel.

So your "saints" are not in heaven, neither are your popes.  So praying to them is futile.

Your vision is so clouded by false images and ideas of what you do not yet understand.

I understand perfectly.   I am not brainwashed by your cult and its attempt to kosher a pig, to trying foist its heresies on the Bible.

 

This is the kind of attitude and post which is hateful .You begin well sometimes ,by giving facts that I would agree with ,but end with hatefest with untruths based on your ignorance of history ,reality of society and  of the RCC it correct and you will be believed and listened to ,but you sound so judgemental that you seem to be a Pharisee who puts himself above the publican ,and for whom charity is a bad word .

To say that Catholics throghout history are not saved is a LIE .Without the RCC you would not have any christian Church ,no society .As it is full of human beings ,men like you who thought themselves  superior morally and intellectually it had problems ,and in recent centuries instead of taking the opportunity to coeect errors has continued in them,the worst being the iunderling of the infallibility of the popes in 1870 .

The number of Saints born from being in the RCC who believed in and followed Christ in true charity is incalculable(  Not all pray to people ) .Millions and millions anyway .As for Protestants welI won't go there ,but if reading and knowing the bible makes a christian only ,then why were they so lacking in Grace so many of them  ,I would go so far as to say  that without many in  RCC  our world would have collapsed a long time go as I see no Protestant Church  which holds up so well .

We are now in the time of the end which is happening over time and not in one big bang ,and all beliefs and behaviours are being scrutinized   Those in the RCC on the outskirts are most critical of their Church .Those who are busy condemning others are in the greatest danger .As you know there is a difference between quoting the bible and taking judgement on others as you do all the time .A dangerous occupation in my opinion .I have no idea whom God will let in ,although one can 'see fruits' ,so better to get ready oneself .

As Hemingway said " one knows not for whom the bell tolls" ,his literary way of saying do not judge ,it might be you who is condemned .

I fear for the souls of those who condemn others, especially those who make it a priority in their lives.

 

I fear for those that are lead into hell though the satanic and grotesque heresies of Roman Catholicism.

[peacemakerIND]

I AGREE MANY POINTS FROM MANY PEOPLE

HERE IS ONE MATTER

JESUS DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE

If some one died without hearing gospel, if that person is getting revelation from creation, he may not able to know the truth how Jesus paid penalty on cross.. here the matter is ,... if a person gets the revelation from creation,, if that person is not able to hear on Jesus blood, how he can get salvation? here the matter is .. is there any other way without blood of Jesus Christ? i love to encourage you all to think in this way