what is the way.. for who died without hearing gospel.

[thereselittleflower]

Necromancy - conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Necromancy falls under witch craft or sorcery. To my knowledge, those who pray to the dead are doing so in hope to influence the course of events by appealing to the dead to influence the course of events.

 

Then what am I doing when I ask you to pray for me?   Practicing necromancy?

 

Do you even have any idea what necromancy is?

I knew a necromancer.    He was a bonifide sociopath.   I have never seen anyone so able to pinpoint people's weaknesses and mainpulate them with just a few words passing between them.   

He explained the different types of necromancy to me and a friend.  We were sitting there thinking what is going on here?  We listened to better understand what we were dealing with.    

What you are ignoring here is that the practice of necromancy is one of summoning the dead and putting them under your control so they are forced to do the necromancer's bidding.  It requires going to graveyards, digging up the bones of the dead and using these through occultic means to summon and force your control on one who is dead.

Do you really accuse Catholics of going to graveyards, digging up graves, and using the bones of the dead to summon them to appear before them and bind the dead so summoned to their control to do their bidding?

 

If you think that is what Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics and many protestants do, I am sorry, but you are soooo far off the mark.  

 

The scriptures forbid necromancy.

The scriptures forbid summoning and controlling the dead to foretell and control future events.

 

Asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us is no different than asking  you to pray for me.     If asking the Saints in heaven to pray for me means I am controlling them and forcing them to do my bidding, when all I am doing is asking them to pray to God for me, then the same must be true when I ask you to pray for me, for when I ask you to pray for me am I not appealing to you to pray to influence the course of events?

 

Please, take time to think about what you are saying and all of its implications.   You are completely negating the power of prayer with your claims, for if we are not allowed to influence the course of events through prayer, then what is the point of praying for others at all?  What is the point of asking others to pray for us?

 

The Saints in heaven are not dead.  

•  Matthew 22:32
• I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

 

Why do you say they are dead?  Is God now no longer the God of the living but of the dead?   Why do you make the words of Christ here of no effect?  Why do you contradict your Lord God?

 

 

They are very much alive.   

 

When one asks a Saint in heaven to pray for them, they are requesting prayers from the living.

 

 

 

All I gave you was a quote from Mirriam Webster dictionary which defines the word, necromancy. And I noted that necromancy falls under witchcraft. So, from your post, it appears that you do not accept the definition given by Mirriam Webster. I consider Mirriam Webster an excellent dictionary and therefore believe you don't know what necromancy means as your definition is incorrect.

If you think that the definition of necromancy from Mirriam Websters dictionary matches what occurs in the RCC, then you, yourself have accused the RCC of practicing necromancy.

The link to Mirriam Websters definition for necromancy:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/necromancy

 

 

Did you bother to read my post?

 

 

[missmuffet]

I am not sitting around and twiddling my thumbs.I pray to God many times during the day.The difference in me is that I do not pray to Mary who is not a queen in heaven,she was not a virgin and she is a sinner just like you and me.The Saints would not want you to pray for them.They know that God is the only one to pray to.Your prayers to Mary and the Saints are empty.How sad when you have a loving Father in heaven to pray to and you are wasting your time praying to those in heaven who do not even hear your prayer.

bopeep, I was not asking you about what you're doing right now on earth.

I asked you about what you expect to be doing in heaven.

When you die and go to heaven, do you expect to be sitting  on your hands and twiddling your thumbs while Jesus is busy interceding for those on earth?

Or do you expect to join him rather than simply watch your Lord and King work while you sit by and watch?

 

If my prayers to Mary and the Saints are so empty as you claim, then why are they answered so much more powerfully, so much more quickly, so much more surely than if I pray alone?

 

Now wait a minute.

I just reread your post.

 

You are saying Mary was not a virgin?     You're saying that Mary had known a man before Jesus was conceived?

Do you realize that is not the christian faith?

 

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
 

Matthew 1:23

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

 

 

Are you sure you want to be denying the virginity of Mary and the virgin birth?

 

 

 

Yes,the Bible says that Jesus had two half brothers.After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph had two children.That does mean that Mary was not a virgin.

[Guest shiloh357]

One the other of the myriad of errors that emanate from the RCC  is the perpetual virginity of Mary.  Mary was a virgin until after the birth of Jesus she had other children by Joseph.   Jesus had other half brothers and sisters.

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by shiloh357

[Guest shiloh357]

And who more perfectly prays according to the will of God?

Those on earth, beset by sin, their view of God obstructed by sin and a fallen world?

Or those in heaven, purified and holy, free of every weight that besets those on earth, who view the very face of God unobstructed?

They are the most powerful prayer warriors because nothing obstructs their prayers and they always pray in the perfect will of God, for nothing obstructs their understanding of it.

 

No one is in heaven praying for us.   No one is in heaven listening to us.  The Bible doesn't teach that any saints are in heaven praying for us.   The ONLY person in heaven who is praying for us is Jesus.

So to answer your question  Jesus more perfectly prays according to the will of God.  Jesus prays more perfectly than Mary of or anyone else.  

[missmuffet]

And who more perfectly prays according to the will of God?

Those on earth, beset by sin, their view of God obstructed by sin and a fallen world?

Or those in heaven, purified and holy, free of every weight that besets those on earth, who view the very face of God unobstructed?

They are the most powerful prayer warriors because nothing obstructs their prayers and they always pray in the perfect will of God, for nothing obstructs their understanding of it.

 

No one is in heaven praying for us.   No one is in heaven listening to us.  The Bible doesn't teach that any saints are in heaven praying for us.   The ONLY person in heaven who is praying for us is Jesus.

So to answer your question  Jesus more perfectly prays according to the will of God.  Jesus prays more perfectly than Mary of or anyone else.  

Yes shiloh 

[thereselittleflower]

I am not sitting around and twiddling my thumbs.I pray to God many times during the day.The difference in me is that I do not pray to Mary who is not a queen in heaven,she was not a virgin and she is a sinner just like you and me.The Saints would not want you to pray for them.They know that God is the only one to pray to.Your prayers to Mary and the Saints are empty.How sad when you have a loving Father in heaven to pray to and you are wasting your time praying to those in heaven who do not even hear your prayer.

bopeep, I was not asking you about what you're doing right now on earth.

I asked you about what you expect to be doing in heaven.

When you die and go to heaven, do you expect to be sitting  on your hands and twiddling your thumbs while Jesus is busy interceding for those on earth?

Or do you expect to join him rather than simply watch your Lord and King work while you sit by and watch?

 

If my prayers to Mary and the Saints are so empty as you claim, then why are they answered so much more powerfully, so much more quickly, so much more surely than if I pray alone?

 

Now wait a minute.

I just reread your post.

 

You are saying Mary was not a virgin?     You're saying that Mary had known a man before Jesus was conceived?

Do you realize that is not the christian faith?

 

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
 

Matthew 1:23

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

 

 

Are you sure you want to be denying the virginity of Mary and the virgin birth?

 

 

 

Yes,the Bible says that Jesus had two half brothers.After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph had two children.That does mean that Mary was not a virgin.

 

Ok  if they were half brothers, then they weren't Mary's children but Joseph's from a previous marriage.   

How does Joseph's children from a previous marriage take away Mary's virginity?

Nowhere does the bible say Mary had other children by the way.    I'm not sure where you are getting they had two more children after Jesus, for there is nothing in scripture or the ancient teachings and traditions of the christian faith that says such a thing.

 

Bopeep  -  Joseph was a righteous man.  God had inhabited the womb of Mary for 9 months.  That is no different than the Holy of Holies in the Temple.   Her womb became the Holy of Holies for God Himself dwelt there in His fullness.   

Do you really think he would take for himself someone who had been so set aside by God for God  Himself to inhabit?  Or as a righteous Jew would he not have recognized the sacredness of what had happened to Mary, and in respect for her and God kept her inviolate?

Do you really think he would have followed up what God did by treating Mary as ordinary when he dared not enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[missmuffet]

I am not sitting around and twiddling my thumbs.I pray to God many times during the day.The difference in me is that I do not pray to Mary who is not a queen in heaven,she was not a virgin and she is a sinner just like you and me.The Saints would not want you to pray for them.They know that God is the only one to pray to.Your prayers to Mary and the Saints are empty.How sad when you have a loving Father in heaven to pray to and you are wasting your time praying to those in heaven who do not even hear your prayer.

bopeep, I was not asking you about what you're doing right now on earth.

I asked you about what you expect to be doing in heaven.

When you die and go to heaven, do you expect to be sitting  on your hands and twiddling your thumbs while Jesus is busy interceding for those on earth?

Or do you expect to join him rather than simply watch your Lord and King work while you sit by and watch?

 

If my prayers to Mary and the Saints are so empty as you claim, then why are they answered so much more powerfully, so much more quickly, so much more surely than if I pray alone?

 

Now wait a minute.

I just reread your post.

 

You are saying Mary was not a virgin?     You're saying that Mary had known a man before Jesus was conceived?

Do you realize that is not the christian faith?

 

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
 

Matthew 1:23

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

 

 

Are you sure you want to be denying the virginity of Mary and the virgin birth?

 

 

 

Yes,the Bible says that Jesus had two half brothers.After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph had two children.That does mean that Mary was not a virgin.

 

Ok  if they were half brothers, then they weren't Mary's children but Joseph's from a previous marriage.   

How does Joseph's children from a previous marriage take away Mary's virginity?

Nowhere does the bible say Mary had other children by the way.    I'm not sure where you are getting they had two more children after Jesus, for there is nothing in scripture or the ancient teachings and traditions of the christian faith that says such a thing.

 

 

 

 

Please tell me you are kidding.Is that what the Catholic Church is telling you?Joseph was not married before he married Mary.I think you are brainwashed.

[missmuffet]

It looks like I am in error.Jesus had four siblings.

Question: "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?"

Answer: Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-siblings.html

Edited August 19, 2015 by bopeep1909

[thereselittleflower]

One the other of the myriad of errors that emanate from the RCC  is the perpetual virginity of Mary.  Mary was a virgin until after the birth of Jesus she had other children by Joseph.   Jesus had other half brothers and sisters.

 

Since it is the steady and constant testimony of the earliest chrstians, you would be wrong again Shiloh.

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am not sitting around and twiddling my thumbs.I pray to God many times during the day.The difference in me is that I do not pray to Mary who is not a queen in heaven,she was not a virgin and she is a sinner just like you and me.The Saints would not want you to pray for them.They know that God is the only one to pray to.Your prayers to Mary and the Saints are empty.How sad when you have a loving Father in heaven to pray to and you are wasting your time praying to those in heaven who do not even hear your prayer.

bopeep, I was not asking you about what you're doing right now on earth.

I asked you about what you expect to be doing in heaven.

When you die and go to heaven, do you expect to be sitting  on your hands and twiddling your thumbs while Jesus is busy interceding for those on earth?

Or do you expect to join him rather than simply watch your Lord and King work while you sit by and watch?

 

If my prayers to Mary and the Saints are so empty as you claim, then why are they answered so much more powerfully, so much more quickly, so much more surely than if I pray alone?

 

Now wait a minute.

I just reread your post.

 

You are saying Mary was not a virgin?     You're saying that Mary had known a man before Jesus was conceived?

Do you realize that is not the christian faith?

 

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
 

Matthew 1:23

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

 

 

Are you sure you want to be denying the virginity of Mary and the virgin birth?

 

 

 

Yes,the Bible says that Jesus had two half brothers.After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph had two children.That does mean that Mary was not a virgin.

 

Ok  if they were half brothers, then they weren't Mary's children but Joseph's from a previous marriage.   

How does Joseph's children from a previous marriage take away Mary's virginity?

Nowhere does the bible say Mary had other children by the way.    I'm not sure where you are getting they had two more children after Jesus, for there is nothing in scripture or the ancient teachings and traditions of the christian faith that says such a thing.

 

 

 

 

Please tell me you are kidding.Is that what the Catholic Church is telling you?Joseph was not married before he married Mary.I think you are brainwashed.

 

Do you know what a half brother is bopeep?   A half brother means only one parent is shared, not both.   How do you think Jesus had half brothers as you claim?  Are you claiming that Mary had children with someone other than Joseph?

 

Bopeep, do you believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus in her womb?

 

And it is the very early testimony of the Eastern Orthodox Church that Jesus had half brouthers by Joseph from a previous marriage.  Joseph was much older than Mary, and so it is not at all impossible he had been previously married and his wife had already died.

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by thereselittleflower