Jump to content
IGNORED

Book of Enoch


angels4u

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  16
  • Topic Count:  134
  • Topics Per Day:  0.04
  • Content Count:  8,142
  • Content Per Day:  2.34
  • Reputation:   6,612
  • Days Won:  20
  • Joined:  11/02/2014
  • Status:  Offline

The canon was closed with the writings of John.  He was the last human writer of Scripture.  

How was this done?

It was done by God putting up a roadblock at the end of Revelation.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

There are some who try to avoid the significance of this passage by telling us that it applies only to this book.  But since John was the last apostle and he wrote this as the last prophecy from God, it should be evident that this roadblock applies to the entire canon of Scripture.  The canon was completed and closed by about 90 AD.

 

This is also a warning to all who would tamper with God's Word and God's Truth.  We are to take extreme precautions that we DO NOT pervert anything that God has said lest we come under His judgment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest shiloh357

God simply stopped inspiring anything after John.  NT canon was already being recognized by the 1st Century church long before the Roman Catholic "church"  ever came into existence.

 

There are only 66 inspired, inerrant and infallible books that make up the Bible.  The Apocrypha is far to error ridden to match up with Scripture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Graduated to Heaven
  • Followers:  207
  • Topic Count:  60
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,651
  • Content Per Day:  1.17
  • Reputation:   5,761
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  01/31/2004
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/04/1943

The canon was closed with the writings of John.  He was the last human writer of Scripture.  

 

How was this done?

 

~

 

Beloved, Many Give Lip Service

 

This is what the LORD of Hosts says: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are making you worthless. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the LORD's mouth. Jeremiah 23:16 (HCSB)

 

While They Still Think They'll Get Away With it

 

Because the sentence against a criminal act is not carried out quickly, the heart of people is filled with the desire to commit crime. Ecclesiastes 8:11 (HCSB)

 

Not Believing The Holy Ghost Cuts

 

Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is God's word. Ephesians 6:17 (HCSB)

 

The Doss Out

 

For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart. Hebrews 4:12 (HCSB)

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

 

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. John 5:24 (HCSB)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  58
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  5,457
  • Content Per Day:  1.68
  • Reputation:   4,220
  • Days Won:  37
  • Joined:  07/01/2015
  • Status:  Offline

 

The canon was closed with the writings of John.  He was the last human writer of Scripture.  

How was this done?

It was done by God putting up a roadblock at the end of Revelation.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

There are some who try to avoid the significance of this passage by telling us that it applies only to this book.  But since John was the last apostle and he wrote this as the last prophecy from God, it should be evident that this roadblock applies to the entire canon of Scripture.  The canon was completed and closed by about 90 AD.

 

This is also a warning to all who would tamper with God's Word and God's Truth.  We are to take extreme precautions that we DO NOT pervert anything that God has said lest we come under His judgment.

 

 

 

How is it recognized that the book of Revelation is indeed inspired scripture?

 

How is it recognized that works written before it and not in our NT are indeed not inspired?

 

 

 You said it was evident that the warning given at the end of the book of Revelation is for the entire scriptures, but why is it evident?  I understand you claim it is because it was written by the last apostle.  For that to be a valid reason there must be something more than that telling us that is how God works.

 

How is it recognized that the warning at the end of Revelation is for the entire scripture and not just the book of Revelation? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  15
  • Topic Count:  114
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  1,236
  • Content Per Day:  0.29
  • Reputation:   673
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/24/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  12/18/1970

God simply stopped inspiring anything after John.  NT canon was already being recognized by the 1st Century church long before the Roman Catholic "church"  ever came into existence.

 

There are only 66 inspired, inerrant and infallible books that make up the Bible.  The Apocrypha is far to error ridden to match up with Scripture.

:clap:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  58
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  5,457
  • Content Per Day:  1.68
  • Reputation:   4,220
  • Days Won:  37
  • Joined:  07/01/2015
  • Status:  Offline

God simply stopped inspiring anything after John.  NT canon was already being recognized by the 1st Century church long before the Roman Catholic "church"  ever came into existence.

 

There are only 66 inspired, inerrant and infallible books that make up the Bible.  The Apocrypha is far to error ridden to match up with Scripture.

 

 

Can you point us to the evidence that the 1st century church recognized all the books of the bible we have today as inspired?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Graduated to Heaven
  • Followers:  207
  • Topic Count:  60
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,651
  • Content Per Day:  1.17
  • Reputation:   5,761
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  01/31/2004
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/04/1943

God simply stopped inspiring anything after John.  NT canon was already being recognized by the 1st Century church long before the Roman Catholic "church"  ever came into existence.

 

There are only 66 inspired, inerrant and infallible books that make up the Bible.  The Apocrypha is far to error ridden to match up with Scripture.

 

Can you point us to the evidence that the 1st century church recognized all the books of the bible we have today as inspired?

 

:mgdetective:

 

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (ESV)

 

Just about everyone wants to know how the sixty-six books got chosen to be in the Bible. Why these sixty-six? Why not a few more (or a few less)? Why these books and not others?

 

In Persecution in the Early Church Herbert Workman tells the story of a Christian who was brought before the Roman governor of Sicily during the last great persecution of the church. His crime? Possessing a copy of the Gospels.

 

The governor asked, “Where did these come from? Did you bring them from your home?”

The believer replied, “I have no home, as my Lord Jesus knows.”

The governor asked his prisoner to read a portion of the Gospels. He chose a portion of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Next he read from Luke: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

 

At this, the judge ordered the prisoner taken away—to his death.

Under Roman law new religions were illegal. In its first few decades Christianity was seen as a sect within Judaism. Once it was determined that Christianity was a separate religion, it became illegal to identify as a Christian. So, for the first three centuries of what we now call the Christian Era, it was a crime to be Christian. Persecutions sprang up throughout various parts of the empire. Believers were tortured and sometimes martyred for their faith. In 303, Emperor Diocletian ordered the confiscation of Christian property and churches, and the burning of Scriptures. Believers and their Book had become so inseparable that the way to eliminate Christianity was to eliminate the Bible.

 

How the Bible Came Together

 

Who decided what went into the Bible? The short answer to that question is no one. Or maybe a better answer is God did. When scholars talk about how a book qualified to be called Scripture, they list five characteristics called the laws of canonicity. But these characteristics are recognized in hindsight; they weren’t developed by a particular group at a particular time in history.

 

After his resurrection Jesus commissioned his followers to go and make disciples, and they did. They devoted themselves to sharing the Christ’s good news, enfolding people into local churches and teaching them to obey all that Jesus had commanded.

 

These Jewish believers already had Scripture. Around Palestine the Jewish Scripture is exactly what Protestants today call the Old Testament. Jesus referred to these books when he spoke of the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms (Luke 24:44).

 

Outside the Holy Land some Jews included twelve to fifteen other books as part of Scripture. The Septuagint, which was translated in Egypt, contains books that we now call the Apocrypha. (Apocrypha means “those hidden away.”) Early Christians differed over whether these extra books should be considered Scripture or not. Those nearest Palestine tended to exclude them. Those closer to Rome tended to include them.

 

During the sixteenth-century Reformation, Martin Luther spoke strongly against the Apocrypha. In reaction the Roman Catholic Church convened a council in Trent (now in Italy), where they declared the Apocrypha to be canonical. To this day Catholics and Protestants disagree on this issue. Catholics uphold the Apocrypha. Protestants believe that the Apocrypha is useful but not inspired.

 

Wherever Christianity spread, Christians gathered for worship and instruction. In keeping with the customs of the Jewish synagogue, a portion of Old Testament Scripture would be read and explained.

 

Meanwhile, the apostles, along with other evangelists and teachers, traveled from place to place to plant churches and encourage believers. When one of these recognized leaders was in town, he was invited to speak during the service.

 

As need arose, the apostles wrote letters to various churches. When a letter arrived, it was read with great excitement in the worship service. Often the letter would be copied and shared with neighboring churches, who, in turn, would share it with still other churches. Naturally, the more inspiring letters were copied and shared more often.

 

In his letter to the Colossians, Paul wrote, “After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea” (Colossians 4:16). We still have the letter to the Colossians. The letter to the Laodiceans was not considered inspired or pertinent enough to be preserved.

 

Around A.D. 150, Justin Martyr described worship this way:

 

On the day called the Day of the Sun all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then all rise together and pray.

 

By this early date, “the memoirs of the apostles” were considered as important to the teaching of the church as the writings of the prophets.

 

Marcion and Montanus. About ten years earlier a wealthy ship owner named Marcion sailed from his home near the Black Sea to the capital city of Rome. Marcion believed that the God of the Old Testament was different than the God of the New Testament. The former was distant and loved justice, while the latter was loving and emphasized grace.

 

Marcion rejected the Old Testament, along with any writings that might reinforce views other than his own. He developed a list of books he considered acceptable: portions of the Gospel of Luke, ten of Paul’s letters, plus a letter purportedly from Paul to the Alexandrians. This list is known as the Marcion Canon.

 

The church had to respond to this. Though nothing had been officially written down, decided or proclaimed, most Christians had a sense of what was Scripture and what wasn’t.

 

Between A.D. 156 and 172, a second provocateur appeared on the scene. His name was Montanus. Montanus was accompanied by two prophetesses, Prisca and Maximilla. “The Three” spoke in ecstatic visions and encouraged their followers to fast and pray, calling the church to a higher standard of righteousness and zeal. If that was as far as their teaching went, they would have been an asset. But their message included what they called “new prophecy,” which pushed Christ and the apostolic message into the background. The age of Jesus was being superseded by the age of the Holy Spirit, and Montanus was its spokesman.

 

Was Montanus truly bringing a new prophecy with new authority? Prophecy more authoritative than Jesus and the apostles? This question prompted the church to respond a second time.

 

In A.D. 144, the church of Rome excommunicated Marcion and continued the sifting process on what was Scripture and what wasn’t. The Montanus controversy pushed the church to ask further questions of their Scriptures.

 

Specifically, was God bringing further revelation? Could that revelation be true if it contradicted things taught by Jesus and the apostles? Could new truth change or add to the basic teachings the church had been feeding on for the past century? The answer was no. From this the church concluded that the canon of Scripture was closed.

 

Spurred by these dilemmas the church developed its list of canonical books. The following are guidelines for accepting a book into the New Testament:

 

1. Was the book written by a prophet of God?

2. Was the writer confirmed by acts of God?

3. Does the message tell the truth about God?

4. Did it come with the power of God?

5. Was it accepted by God’s people?

 

These are the marks of canonicity. “Canon” is a Greek word meaning “rule” or “measuring stick.” These five questions are used to determine which books “measure up” to being labeled divinely inspired. They exhibit “the marks of canonicity.”

 

Turn to a Bible’s table of contents and you’ll see that each of the books was written by either a prophet or apostle (Ephesians 2:20), or by someone with a direct relationship to one.

 

Miracles were the means by which God confirmed the authority of his spokesmen. In Exodus 4, Moses was given miraculous powers to confirm his call. In 2 Corinthians 12:12, Paul teaches that the mark of an apostle is “signs, wonders and miracles.”

 

Truth cannot contradict itself, so agreement with the other books of Scripture was only logical. As was historical accuracy. If the facts of a book were inaccurate, it couldn’t have been from God.

 

The inner witness of the Spirit was equally important. A key question these early Christians asked was, When we read this, is there an inner sense from God that what is written is right and true?

 

Initial acceptance by people to whom the work was addressed was crucial.

 

What was the original audience’s sense? Did they accept the book as an authoritative word from God? Daniel, who lived within a few years of Jeremiah, called Jeremiah’s book “Scripture” in Daniel 9:2. Paul called the Gospel of Luke “Scripture” in 1 Timothy 5:18. Peter affirmed that Paul’s letters were “Scripture” in 2 Peter 3:16.

 

The Muratorian Fragment. Even before Marcion and Montanus, the church was aware of these important criteria. In A.D. 96, Clement of Rome wrote “The apostles were made evangelists to us by the Lord Christ; Jesus Christ was sent by God. Thus Christ is from God and the apostles from Christ. . . . The Church is built on them as a foundation” (1 Clement 42).

 

After Marcion and Montanus, lists of New Testament books begin to appear. One of the first was The Muratorian Fragment. It was discovered among the Vatican’s sacred documents by historian Ludovico Antonio Muratori in 1740 and dates to about A.D. 190. The fragment is damaged. The portion we possess begins with “the third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke.” We assume the first and second Gospels to be Matthew and Mark. The fragment lists John, Acts, all of Paul’s letters, James, 1-2 John, Jude and the Revelation of John. It also includes the Revelation of Peter, the Wisdom of Solomon and (“to be used in private, but not public worship”) the Shepherd of Hermas.

 

Eusebius. By the early third century only a handful of books that we now call our New Testament were in question. In western regions of the empire, the book of Hebrews faced opposition, and in the east Revelation was unpopular. Eusebius, a church historian of the fourth century, records that James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John and Jude were the only books “spoken against” (though recognized by others).

 

Athanasius. In 367, Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, wrote an Easter letter that contained all twenty-seven books of our present New Testament. In 393 the Synod of Hippo affirmed our current New Testament, and in 397 the Council of Carthage published the same list.

 

Who Decided What Belongs in the Canon?

 

Theologians are careful to note that the church didn’t develop the canon, God did that by inspiring its writing and superintending each book’s preservation. The church recognized the canon by experience and mutual agreement. http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/who-decided-what-went-into-the-bible.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  58
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  5,457
  • Content Per Day:  1.68
  • Reputation:   4,220
  • Days Won:  37
  • Joined:  07/01/2015
  • Status:  Offline

Dear Joe, thank you for that post.

 

In it you said

 

 

 

Who decided what went into the Bible? The short answer to that question is no one. Or maybe a better answer is God did. When scholars talk about how a book qualified to be called Scripture, they list five characteristics called the laws of canonicity. But these characteristics are recognized in hindsight; they weren’t developed by a particular group at a particular time in history.

 

 

How were these 5 characteristics discovered?  And by whom?

 

 

You also said:

 

 

In A.D. 144, the church of Rome excommunicated Marcion and continued the sifting process on what was Scripture and what wasn’t. The Montanus controversy pushed the church to ask further questions of their Scriptures.

 

Specifically, was God bringing further revelation? Could that revelation be true if it contradicted things taught by Jesus and the apostles? Could new truth change or add to the basic teachings the church had been feeding on for the past century? The answer was no. From this the church concluded that the canon of Scripture was closed.

 

Where do you find evidence for these statements regarding the type of questions your post alledges in the quote above?

 

Where do you find evidence that the Church concluded the canon was closed in or around AD 144?

 

 

Where did the guidelines you outline come from and where is that evidenced?

 

 

You said

 

 

 

The inner witness of the Spirit was equally important. A key question these early Christians asked was, When we read this, is there an inner sense from God that what is written is right and true?

 

 

Where do you find evidence this was the approach of those very early Christians around this time period?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Graduated to Heaven
  • Followers:  207
  • Topic Count:  60
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,651
  • Content Per Day:  1.17
  • Reputation:   5,761
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  01/31/2004
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/04/1943

Dear Joe, thank you for that post.

 

In it you said

 

Who decided what went into the Bible? The short answer to that question is no one. Or maybe a better answer is God did. When scholars talk about how a book qualified to be called Scripture, they list five characteristics called the laws of canonicity. But these characteristics are recognized in hindsight; they weren’t developed by a particular group at a particular time in history.

 

How were these 5 characteristics discovered?  And by whom?

 

You also said:

 

In A.D. 144, the church of Rome excommunicated Marcion and continued the sifting process on what was Scripture and what wasn’t. The Montanus controversy pushed the church to ask further questions of their Scriptures.

 

Specifically, was God bringing further revelation? Could that revelation be true if it contradicted things taught by Jesus and the apostles? Could new truth change or add to the basic teachings the church had been feeding on for the past century? The answer was no. From this the church concluded that the canon of Scripture was closed.

 

Where do you find evidence for these statements regarding the type of questions your post alleges in the quote above?

 

Where do you find evidence that the Church concluded the canon was closed in or around AD 144?

 

Where did the guidelines you outline come from and where is that evidenced?

 

You said

 

The inner witness of the Spirit was equally important. A key question these early Christians asked was, When we read this, is there an inner sense from God that what is written is right and true?

 

Where do you find evidence this was the approach of those very early Christians around this time period?

 

~

 

Beloved,

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Taken from The Bible Questions by Hal Seed. Copyright© 2012 by Hal Seed. Used by permission of InterVarsity Press, P.O. Box 1400, Downers Grove, IL 60515. www.ivpress.com  http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-st

 

~

The rejection of the Apocrypha by Josephus and Philo is not only significant because they both were Jews who knew their own canon but also because they were both familiar with the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Old Testament). Philo himself was from Alexandria where the Septuagint originated. Roman Catholic apologists often claim that the Jewish Septuagint contained the Apocrypha, and since the Septuagint was the Bible used by Jesus and the apostles, the Apocrypha should therefore be considered Scripture. But William Webster explains why this reasoning is false:

 

Josephus not only gave the precise number of the canonical books but stated that the Jewish nation recognized these twenty-two alone as canonical. What is important about his testimony is that he used the Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Thus, even though he used the Greek version, he cited the limited canon of the Hebrews. And as mentioned earlier, Philo also used the Septuagint and did not include the Apocrypha as authoritative canonical Scripture. These cases demonstrate that it does not follow that those who used the Septuagint accepted an expanded canon, in particular, Jesus and the apostles.

 

The listing of the Hebrew Bible at only 22 or 24 books not only tells us that the Jews knew which books belonged in the canon but also that it necessarily excluded the Apocrypha. One reason the Jews did not accept the Apocrypha is because they recognized that an exact succession of their own prophetic line ended around the fourth century B.C. The Apocrypha was written after this point, therefore making it non-canonical. Josephus comments on this as well: http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-the-apocrypha-scripture/

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  58
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  5,457
  • Content Per Day:  1.68
  • Reputation:   4,220
  • Days Won:  37
  • Joined:  07/01/2015
  • Status:  Offline

And how is Hal Seed a good source of this info?   What are his sources?

 

 

Josephus was not a theologian, he was a historian.   And if he was of the Hebrew Jews, then they would have only used the Hebrew scriptures and not the larger Septuagint.   

 

What quotes do we have from Josephus?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...