WHY is the Body of Christ `caught up?`

[Bible2]

Last Daze said in post 20 (a post that was lost):

 

The "why" is inextricably linked to the "when".  It's when the full number of those who are Christ's have been determined and is for the purpose of gathering them together for the marriage supper.  This can only happen on the last day, last trumpet, day of the Lord when that number is fully known.

 

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus indeed won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

 

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

 

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

[Littlelambseativy]

Satan and his minions are the powers and principalities of the air and unless Jesus meets the Church/bride and escorts us into heaven, satan will attempt to prevent the rapture...

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

 

I see you post got `lost,` in the recent glitch. However I thought I would still repost my reply.

I can see your reasoning, but had you thought of the following -

1. `They are Christ`s at His coming.` (1 Cor. 15: 23)

You said that `Consequently, it must be known who all belongs to Christ before He returns.` Do you mean that the world needs to know, or the believers need to know who belongs? The only one that needs to know is the Lord.

`”The Lord knows those who are His,” (2 Tim. 2: 19)

The Lord, the Head of the Body knows who are His & they are the ones whom He will `catch up,` to Himself. As believers are `set` in the Body by the Holy Spirit, then the Body will be intact, in the Holy Spirit & become physically joined to the Head at the `catching up.`

There will be a testing of faith during the reign of the anti-Christ & false prophet, but who those `saints` are, is another topic.

2. The Body of Christ.

Now you say that `The `why` is inextricably linked to the `when.` It`s when the full number of those who are Christ`s have been determined .....`

Glad you link the `why` & the `when.` However God`s motive, His will always comes first. Thus it would be the `when` is inextricably linked to the `why.` The `why,` comes first.

So you say that there is a `number ....determined.` God`s word tells me that –

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.` (John3: 16)

Thus we see that `WHOEVER,` believes, is not a (pre)determined number. God knows because of His omniscience (all knowing) but He does not have a `number` that needs to be reached & thus the Body will be `caught up.` Having a `determined number` would make God partial, whereas all are able to come & believe. Sadly many choose not to.

I do want to bring out some other points from your comments but will let you reply, if you want to, thus far.

Marilyn.

 

 

Hi Marilyn,

 

As I understand 1 Corinthians 15 pertaining to the immortal resurrection, there are three such times when this happens and every single person who has ever lived is included in one of the three.  I base that on :

 

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: [1] Christ the first fruits, after that [2] those who are Christ’s at His coming, [3] then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

 

Our focus in on the second one.  If the second one happens pre-trib then anyone who dies after that is not considered to be Christ's and will not be raised immortal until the third one.  I guess that is the first point that we need to see if we agree on or not.  The problem that I have with that is that those who are martyred during the great tribulation, after Israel flees into the wilderness, are clearly Christ's.

 

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

 

I didn't mean to imply that there is a predetermined number to be reached or that those who are Christs aren't known to God but rather that when the [2] resurrection happens, its a demarcation point for those who are considered to be Christ's.  Things change at that point.  Up until the seventh trumpet / vial there is the potential for people to be Christ's.

 

Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.  Revelation 16:15

 

The context for this statement by Christ is as the armies gather for the battle of Armageddon.  So by saying that "the fullness of the number must be determined" I'm meaning that the "catching up" can not happen until the potential for someone to be considered Christ's has ended.  The testing in the last days will be an opportunity for everyone to declare by their actions who they belong to.  Until the testing has run it's course, and those who are Christ's have shown that they are, the [2] resurrection can't happen.  That's why the resurrection happens on the last day, at the last trumpet.

 

 

His will always comes first. Thus it would be the `when` is inextricably linked to the `why.` The `why,` comes first.

 

 

Unless there is an explicitly stated "why" then we are both arriving at it by inference. 

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Last Daze,

 

Thank you for clarifying that point – re: the `determined number.`  Now as to that scripture in 1 Corinthians. Let`s write out from 20 – 26, so we can get the context.

 

` But now Christ has risen from the dead, & has become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by man also came resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

But EACH ONE IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ is the first fruits, afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming. (appearing)  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule & all authority & power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.` (1 Cor. 15: 20 – 26)

 

Here the Apostle Paul explicitly delineates a systematic progression “each in his own order.” By his judicious use of sequential Greek words he delineates three distinct & separate stages, with obvious gaps between each.

 

    1. Christos Aparche -  Christ firstfruits.

    2. Eipeita Parousia – Afterwards at His appearing.

     3. Eipa Telos – Then the end.

 

1. Christos Aparche -  Christ firstfruits.

Building & Maturing of the Body of Christ – about 2000 years.

 

       2. Eipeita Parousia – Afterwards at His appearing.

  The connecting to the Body of Christ – Head to Body.

 

Then there is a setting out towards the end – over 1,000 years later.

Continuing each group in their order.

 

144, 000 Israelis.

Great Multitude.

Martyrs

Those beheaded.

Those who turn to God in the Millennium.

 

   3. Eipa Telos – Then the end.

Death is the final enemy to be overcome.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not sure what you mean by "connecting" the head to the body.  Isn't Christ the head (authority) of the church now?  What scriptures back up this future connecting?

Are you saying that the martyrs who hold to the testimony of Jesus that are killed during the great tribulation are not part of the body of Christ?

Also, It seems that you have laid out more than three different resurrections.  Those who belong to Christ are raised immortal at His coming, not in stages for the next 1000+ years.

The third resurrection is stated:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:24

The word "cometh" is not in the original.  In my opinion, It is better left out or changed to "at" which would read: Then the end, when....or....Then at the end, when....

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Thank you for this interesting conversation. I will give you my thoughts on the first part of your comments as it deals with the `Why the Body of Christ is `caught up.` Now you said –

 

 

`I`m not sure what you mean by `connecting` the head to the body. Isn`t Christ the head (authority) of the church now? What scriptures back up this future connecting?`

 

 

A good & insightful question, Last Daze, which I would only be too pleased to share my beliefs according to scripture. I will write them out to keep the flow.

 

Yes, we agree that Christ is the Head of the Body.

 

`And He (God) put all things under His (Christ`s) feet, & gave Him to be Head over all things to the church which is His Body,...` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

 

The Apostle Paul encourages & warns us not to be defrauded by -

 

`not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body, nourished & knit together by joints & ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)

 

We see that the believers are not just a motley group of individuals but are `set` in the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

`For as the Body is one & has many members, but all the members of that one Body, being many, are one Body, so also is Christ......But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the Body, just as He pleased.....`(1 Cor. 12: 12, 18)

 

We also read that Christ is building & maturing His Body till it is not longer tossed by false doctrines.

Christ gave ministries.....`till we all come to the unity of the faith & the knowledge of the Sn of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to & fro & carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness be which they lie in wait to deceive,

but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head- Christ – from whom the whole Body, joined & knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes the growth of the Body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 13 – 16)

 

So we see that the Body is a spiritual organism that is `joined & knit together,` by the Holy Spirit through the members. Thus we realise that Christ is the Head supplying the nourishment for the growth of the Body. We definitely are spiritually connected to Christ the Head. However we are still in our natural bodies. But one glorious day we will be changed –

`and this mortal` will put on `immortality.` (1 Cor. 15: 54)

And when the Lord appears, then we shall be like Him.

`When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.` (Col. 3: 4)

The Body of Christ will be `caught up` to meet the Lord in the air.

`Then we who are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

It is then that the glorified Body of Christ will join, connect with Christ its glorified Head & see Him as He is & each other as we will be.

`Beloved, now we are children of God; & it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.` (1 John 3: 2)

There is a `physical` (glorified) connecting of the Body to the Head to whom we are spiritually apart of – Head & Body - for a function in the ages to come.

 

Enough for now as you may want to comment on this.

Marilyn.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2015 by Marilyn C
Quote is not right.

[Last Daze]

Hi Marilyn,

Thanks for your reply.  We may need to back up a bit more and clarify some things.

As I see it, Christ is coming back and will raise immortal those who are His per 1 Corinthians 15.  I think we need to clarify who makes up that group as we each see it.

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

The parts in bold define who will be resurrected or changed at Christ's coming.  Does this include the Old Testament saints?  I tend to think that it does.  We don't have a lot of detail concerning Christ's three days and nights in the heart of the earth as to what was accomplished but consider:

For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.  1 Peter 4:6

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.  Matthew 27:52-53

Who were the dead who were preached to and who preached to them?  And what does Ephesians 4:8 mean when it says that Christ led captive a host of captives...was it those saints who were raised from the dead?

I think those verses are all related to what Christ accomplished during the three days and nights in the heart of the earth.  Based on that, I see those who are Christ's as encompassing both the old testament as well as the new testament saints.  That is the group that makes up the bride of Christ.  The body of Christ is a subset of those who are Christ's....as I see it.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi last Daze,

OK I see what you are thinking, that we are all in together. Now had you thought on this -

In Hebrews Ch. 12 we read of those who are in the General Assembly in the third heaven.

`You have come to .......the General Assembly & church of the first born who are registered in heaven,....to the spirits of just men made perfect...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

We see two groups there – the Body of Christ, & the spirits of just men made perfect. God also tells us that this group (spirits of just men) `worked righteousness...` etc & were the people of faith (in the OT) who looked for a heavenly country, a city that God would build. Now notice at the end of that chapter, 11 a very interesting scripture.

`God having provided something better for us, that they (OT) should not be made perfect apart for us.` (Heb. 11: 40)

The `something better,` refers to a greater dominion. Now that is something to look into for it comes back again to the `why of the catching away,` the purpose of God for the Body of Christ & the purpose of God for the OT saints & others.

 

Marilyn.

[D-Dawn]

The original topic of this post...the "why"...is an interesting question to thin about. I'm not sure I've ever considered the "why." I"m not going to paste numerous sources or argue about "When" the Rapture happens...as this is NOT the point of this thread...I am just going to list 3 possible reasons for "why" than come to mind. I'm not stating this is dogma...just pondering.

 

1. God has not appointed us for wrath (I Thess. 5:9)

2. The Church is pretty much irrelevant during the Tribulation. It is about Jews/Israel. It's the 70th week of Daniel.

3. Grace. Grace is the reason we are saved. Perhaps God's Grace is at least part of the reason we will be "caught up."

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi D-Dawn,

Thank you for taking the time to think on this topic. And I believe you have done a wonderful job there. Very good indeed. I still have a few other reasons but am waiting to give others time to think & post.

Just noticed `irrelevant,` maybe you`d like to think on that one. I realise you meant on earth, but still there is a purpose & a link in relation to what Christ is doing through the tribulation. So what is the Body of Christ doing in the third heaven during the tribulation?

 

Blessings, sis, Marilyn.