When Christ returns for the Body of Christ.

[Ezra]

Hi Ezra,

Now bro, I wouldn`t be too quick to say my belief is false. Do you realise who the Lord is talking to there concerning those places, (rooms, mansions)?

Marilyn.

The Lord is talking to all those who believe in God and believe also in Him.  That would consist of all the saints who are children of God, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ. While He addresses His apostles in these verses, He also addresses His Church, since other Scriptures clearly confirm this.  Please note what is revealed in Heb 11:10; 12: 22-24:

For he [Abraham] looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Abraham was already looking forward to living in the New Jerusalem where the *general assembly and Church of the firstborn* will also be found. God the Father and Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant will always be in that city with twelve foundations.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Ezra,

 

Now you may not realize but the Body of Christ is a different group than the `righteous men.` They each have a different purpose & inheritance. Let`s just have a quick look at them. I`ll start with your good scriptures in Hebrews -

 

`For he (Abraham) looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder & maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10)

`But you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly & the Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 22 – 24)

 

The Righteous (just) men.

 

As you said, “Abraham was already looking forward to living in the New Jerusalem …` I agree with that, Ezra. Now we know that the New Jerusalem comes down in the time of the New Heavens & New Earth. It will be then that the `spirits of just men, (& women)` receive their new bodies. Their `spirits` are in the general assembly now but they will receive their new bodies when the New Jerusalem comes closer to the earth ready to function.

 

The Body of Christ (Church).

 

Now if we look carefully at Heb. 11 again we will notice something specifically for the Body of Christ.

 

`And all these (OT people), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, GOD HAVING PROVIDED SOMETHING BETTER FOR US,….` (Heb. 11: 39 & 40)

 

`better,` Gk. `kreitton,`meaning stronger, & great dominion, (from `kratos`)

 

The Body of Christ has –

 

• Something better, greater dominion, (than the city) (Heb. 11: 40)

• Registered in heaven, (Heb. 12: 23)

• Citizenship in heaven. (Phil. 3: 20 – Gk. `politeuma,`)

• Inheritance In heaven. (1 Peter 1: 4)

• Heavenly calling. (Heb. 3: 1)

   

  We are told which part of the heavens that will be our eternal home, - the third heaven.

   

  `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne…` (Rev. 3: 21)

   

  And God has placed Christ –

   

  `…..far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.`(Eph. 1: 21)

   

  The Lord Jesus Christ`s eternal throne is `far above all…` & the Body of Christ will be with Him, to rule & reign as promised. The other realms, the city & the earth will as we know come under the rule of the Lord, however He reigns supreme `far above all….`even in the age to come.

   

  There is more to our eternal purpose, but that is enough for now.

   

  Marilyn.

   

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

Very good question, I believe, some people are saying that the Body of Christ has to go through the tribulation (70th week) to prove `whatever.` However it is not suffering (per say) that changes us, look at those in Rev. 9: 21, `...& they did not repent of their murders...` & they had just suffered through some of the judgments. It is masochistic to believe that believers have to go through the judgments that Christ executes upon the rebellious. He is not going to execute judgments upon the Body that He died for.

So I believe that it is standing for the truth that always involves a struggle & a cost - health, family, friends, land, misunderstanding, torture, martyrdom etc. I believe that the Lord who is the Head of the body is building & maturing His body & He will complete it. That means that whoever is in the Body will have come to doctrinal agreement. This has to happen by the Holy Spirit, otherwise Christ is not able to operate in His body & accomplish this great work.

Marilyn.

It's important to make the distinction between tribulation and wrath.  Even though they both carry a negative connotation, they are not the same.  When you speak of "they did not repent", that pertains to a time after the great tribulation and well into the plagues of the seven plague angels.

That means that whoever is in the Body will have come to doctrinal agreement. This has to happen by the Holy Spirit, otherwise Christ is not able to operate in His body & accomplish this great work.

Doctrinal agreement is best lived out, not recited.  People can say anything.  What they believe in is demonstrated in their lives.  Doctrine explains what someone believes to be true while faith demonstrates it.  Everyone believes in something, has faith in something, and that something is expressed in how they live their lives.

Those who believe in Jesus Christ seek not only to know truth but to incorporate His truth (doctrine) into their lives.  Our faith comes by being both hearers and doers of the word.  The Christian faith is tested when circumstances come into our lives that give us the opportunity to either respond according to the Spirit or according to the flesh.

So that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.  1 Peter 1:7

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you.  1 Peter 4:12

So, how do we arrive at the oneness / unanimity of the faith?  Since our faith is proved by being tested, it only makes sense to me that we all will be tested by the same fiery ordeal; a time of testing that will give everyone a chance to declare with their actions who belongs to Christ.

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.  Matthew 16:25

A global time of testing to reveal who loves Jesus more than their own life.  A testing that produces a unified response among those who are His.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I think the `time of testing`needs to be cleared up. Now do you mean that the Body of Christ to come to the unity of faith will have to undergo `hunger, thirst & heat` which actually leads to death?

`Who are these....These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,....They shall neither hunger any more nor thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;...`(Rev. 7: 13 - 16)

I personally believe that the Lord will judge the hearts of every one.

`..the Lord, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness & reveal the counsels of the heats; & then each one`s praise will come from God.` (1 Cor. 4: 5)

Remember it is standing for the truth, not just through physical sufferings, but through - family separation, loss of home, land, (now in Iraq & Syria etc) daily keeping a watch on our mouths, our eyes, the thoughts & intents of the heart...etc.

Marilyn.

 

 

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I think the `time of testing`needs to be cleared up. Now do you mean that the Body of Christ to come to the unity of faith will have to undergo `hunger, thirst & heat` which actually leads to death?

`Who are these....These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,....They shall neither hunger any more nor thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;...`(Rev. 7: 13 - 16)

I personally believe that the Lord will judge the hearts of every one.

`..the Lord, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness & reveal the counsels of the heats; & then each one`s praise will come from God.` (1 Cor. 4: 5)

Remember it is standing for the truth, not just through physical sufferings, but through - family separation, loss of home, land, (now in Iraq & Syria etc) daily keeping a watch on our mouths, our eyes, the thoughts & intents of the heart...etc.

Marilyn.

 

 

Hi Marilyn,

I personally believe that the Lord will judge the hearts of every one.

`..the Lord, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness & reveal the counsels of the heats; & then each one`s praise will come from God.` (1 Cor. 4: 5)

Remember it is standing for the truth, not just through physical sufferings, but through - family separation, loss of home, land, (now in Iraq & Syria etc) daily keeping a watch on our mouths, our eyes, the thoughts & intents of the heart...etc.

I don't disagree with this Marilyn but I also don't see it as bringing about the unity of the faith.  This speaks more to the tribulation that believers experience from being in the world but not of it.  We are not greater than our Master and should not expect to be treated differently.  The kind of persecution you mention has been going on to one degree or another, in one location or another ever since the gospel began spreading around the world.  After the great commission has been fulfilled, the great tribulation will begin a time of testing that tests everyone's faith.  Christ is coming back for those who are His and having a global time of testing will leave no doubt as to who is "of the faith" and who is not.  It will separate into two groups, no neutral ground.

Those who are martyred in the great tribulation will have held to the testimony of Jesus even unto death.  They will not save their lives by compromising their faith.  They will lose their lives as a testimony to the Truth.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Glad we agree on some things. However you still think that the Body of Christ has to undergo Christ`s judgments upon the rebellious, to be able to come to the `unity of faith.` But this is NOT what the Lord has told us.

 

`However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH; ...` (John 16: 13)

 

Thus we see that it is a work of the Holy Spirit that will do this amazing work of bringing the Body of Christ to the `knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)  No amount of us suffering will bring in the fullness of truth. We can stand for the truth that has been revealed by the Holy Spirit, but it is only a work of the Holy Spirit to bring in the next clarification of misunderstood truth & thus He, & He, the Holy Spirit alone can bring the Body of Christ to completion.

 

Us going through pain & suffering like the Lord, as you referred to, places the glory on US, whereas the Holy Spirit bringing us, (who are tossed to & fro..) to the Unity of faith, will give ALL the glory to the HEAD, Christ.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

 Glad we agree on some things. However you still think that the Body of Christ has to undergo Christ`s judgments upon the rebellious, to be able to come to the `unity of faith.` But this is NOT what the Lord has told us.

 `However, when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH; ...` (John 16: 13)

 Thus we see that it is a work of the Holy Spirit that will do this amazing work of bringing the Body of Christ to the `knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)  No amount of us suffering will bring in the fullness of truth. We can stand for the truth that has been revealed by the Holy Spirit, but it is only a work of the Holy Spirit to bring in the next clarification of misunderstood truth & thus He, & He, the Holy Spirit alone can bring the Body of Christ to completion.

 Us going through pain & suffering like the Lord, as you referred to, places the glory on US, whereas the Holy Spirit bringing us, (who are tossed to & fro..) to the Unity of faith, will give ALL the glory to the HEAD, Christ.

 Marilyn.

Please make the distinction between tribulation and God's judgment / wrath.  It is clearly stated that in the world we will have tribulation.  It is also clearly stated that we are not objects of God's wrath.  They are two different things.  I never said that the body of Christ undergoes His judgments on the rebellious.  What I said was that a servant is not greater than his master.

Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  John 15:20

The Holy Spirit's leading us into truth is not what is at question.  It's the assimilation of that truth into our lives that is.  The testing of our faith will reveal whether the truth that has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit has made the transition from our heads to our hearts.  How many acted on what they heard and thus worshiped God in spirit and truth?  How many only heard and did nothing, deceiving themselves?  The great tribulation will separate between the two.

Us going through pain & suffering like the Lord, as you referred to, places the glory on US

I disagree with this.  Persecution is something that all who live godly in Christ Jesus will encounter.  Concerning physical persecution, I don't think that it's anything that any of us go to seek out so as to glory in it.  Neither should we cower from it if it finds us.

[Ezra]

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

Marilyn, it is telling that you simply ignored this and diverted attention to everything else. In other words, you refuse to acknowledge what Scripture states plainly, and prefer to wander off on other tangents. You claimed that the New Jerusalem is NOT the eternal home of the saints. Scripture says that it is. So you are simply coming up with your own inventions instead of frankly accepting what is in the Word and laying hold on it as God’s truth.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Ezra,

 

Now you may not realize but the Body of Christ is a different group than the `righteous men.` They each have a different purpose & inheritance. Let`s just have a quick look at them. I`ll start with your good scriptures in Hebrews -

 

`For he (Abraham) looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder & maker is God.` (Heb. 11: 10)

`But you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly & the Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 22 – 24)

 

The Righteous (just) men.

 

As you said, “Abraham was already looking forward to living in the New Jerusalem …` I agree with that, Ezra. Now we know that the New Jerusalem comes down in the time of the New Heavens & New Earth. It will be then that the `spirits of just men, (& women)` receive their new bodies. Their `spirits` are in the general assembly now but they will receive their new bodies when the New Jerusalem comes closer to the earth ready to function.

 

The Body of Christ (Church).

 

Now if we look carefully at Heb. 11 again we will notice something specifically for the Body of Christ.

 

`And all these (OT people), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, GOD HAVING PROVIDED SOMETHING BETTER FOR US,….` (Heb. 11: 39 & 40)

 

`better,` Gk. `kreitton,`meaning stronger, & great dominion, (from `kratos`)

 

The Body of Christ has –

 

• Something better, greater dominion, (than the city) (Heb. 11: 40)

• Registered in heaven, (Heb. 12: 23)

• Citizenship in heaven. (Phil. 3: 20 – Gk. `politeuma,`)

• Inheritance In heaven. (1 Peter 1: 4)

• Heavenly calling. (Heb. 3: 1)

   

  We are told which part of the heavens that will be our eternal home, - the third heaven.

   

  `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne…` (Rev. 3: 21)

   

  And God has placed Christ –

   

  `…..far above all principality & power & might & dominion, & every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.`(Eph. 1: 21)

   

  The Lord Jesus Christ`s eternal throne is `far above all…` & the Body of Christ will be with Him, to rule & reign as promised. The other realms, the city & the earth will as we know come under the rule of the Lord, however He reigns supreme `far above all….`even in the age to come.

   

  There is more to our eternal purpose, but that is enough for now.

   

  Marilyn.

   

Hi Ezra,

Now where did I ignore the Body of Christ registered in heaven?

Marilyn.

[missmuffet]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 

Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]

Edited October 2, 2015 by bopeep1909