When Christ returns for the Body of Christ.

[Marilyn C]

Amen, bopeep1909,

What a wonderful encouragement,

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Ezra]

 

Hi Ezra,

Now where did I ignore the Body of Christ registered in heaven?

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

You had stated earlier that the New Jerusalem is NOT the eternal home of the saints.  It has nothing to do with being "registered" in Heaven. I showed you the Scriptures to refute your false position.  You failed to acknowledge that and went of on other tangents. So please tell us "Yea" or "Nay".

[Omegaman 3.0]

Hi Ezra,

Now bro, I wouldn`t be too quick to say my belief is false. Do you realise who the Lord is talking to there concerning those places, (rooms, mansions)?

Marilyn.

Rooms, mansions, tents . . . who cares! Those things are words describing earthly possession, not sure we need such things in eternity. There will be no sun, no bad weather - - - everything will be known, so why do we need privacy or shelter? Do you need all of that space to keep your posessions? So, when mankind was in the perfect environment created for them, were Adam and Eve in a mansion? I do not know if they even had an awning.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3438.htm    Maybe we get too hung up on the literal, maybe the gist of it is that it well be great, we will be taken care of, and there is plenty of room for all believers.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Ezra,

Now where did I ignore the Body of Christ registered in heaven?

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

You had stated earlier that the New Jerusalem is NOT the eternal home of the saints.  It has nothing to do with being "registered" in Heaven. I showed you the Scriptures to refute your false position.  You failed to acknowledge that and went of on other tangents. So please tell us "Yea" or "Nay".

Hi Ezra,

 

As I`ve said before I do not believe that God`s word tells us that the Body of Christ will go to the New Jerusalem. I believe that our eternal destination is with Christ on His throne in the third heaven. Would you like to have a `debate` about that, just between the two of us? (soapbox)

 

Marilyn.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Ezra, Marilyn C, and bopeep1909.

Hi Ezra,

I`m glad you don`t believe the Body of Christ comes down to earth. Now what scriptures tell you that the Body of Christ will come down from the highest heavens & be in the New Jerusalem?

Marilyn.

Let me ask you.  Do you not believe that (a) the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church and (b) the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven and hovers over the earth?

Hi Ezra,

 

I do not believe that God`s word says that the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Body of Christ.

I do believe that the New Jerusalem will come down from the third heaven & hover over the earth.

 

Marilyn.

Hi Ezra,

 

I do not believe that God`s word says that the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Body of Christ.

I do believe that the New Jerusalem will come down from the third heaven & hover over the earth.

 

Marilyn.

The way I see it there will be a new Earth and a New Jerusalem.Like you say the New Jerusalem will hover over the New Earth.

You people AMAZE me! “Hover?!” Just how is that supposed to be accomplished, I wonder? And don’t just say that it will be in orbit! That won’t work!

The city must LAND on the New Earth! Look at all the contextual clues in Revelation 21 and 22:

Revelation 21:1-2

1 And I saw a new heaven (ouranos) and a new earth: for the first heaven (ouranos) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (ouranos), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

Right off the bat, Yochanan (John) told us that he "saw a new heaven.” That’s the Greek word “ouranos” for “heaven.” It’s the SAME GREEK WORD that is used by Yeshua` in Matthew 16:2-3:

Matthew 16:1-4

16 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (ouranos).

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (ouranos) is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Thus, Yochanan saw the New Jerusalem coming ... "OUT OF THE SKY!” Now, do YOU ALL know of anything between the sky and the earth? God is NOT in “His abode” because He is NOT CONFINED to “His abode!” He is OMNIPRESENT! He is EVERYWHERE in His Creation! That God sends the New Jerusalem down does NOT conclude that it comes from some ethereal place called “Heaven!” He sends it down out of the sky! If it comes "OUT of the sky," then it LANDS!

Revelation 21:3

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

Then, immediately Yochanan hears a loud voice out of the sky, crying, “LOOK! The Tent of God is WITH MEN, and He will dwell WITH THEM, ... and God Himself shall be WITH THEM ...!” We don’t go to be with God in “Heaven”; God will COME TO US and DWELL WITH US!

Revelation 21:9-13

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (ouranos) from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
KJV

Again, we are told that the huge city, the Pure Jerusalem, descends OUT OF THE SKY from God! Then, we are told that the city has twelve gates, three on each of the sides of the city, but in doing so, we are also told that the city is ALIGNED WITH NORTH! That is, it has a side of the city facing the north pole, a side of the city facing the south pole, and two sides that lie on meridians! That would be EXTREMELY hard to do with a city “floating” in space!

Let me share with you a little information about orbits: First of all, it’s simply a VERY LONG trajectory, having a trajectory like that of any ballistic missile. It’s traveling fast enough, that it APPEARS to be suspended above the earth, but it is actually falling toward the earth just as any object would fall toward earth. It’s simply traveling so fast, that the curvature of the earth’s surface falls away from the object in orbit just as fast as the object is falling toward the earth. However, the object must be traveling at a horizontal velocity fast enough to “match” the acceleration due to gravity at that height in its trajectory. No matter how perfect the orbit is, eventually that orbit will “decay,” and the object will begin its descent to the earth’s surface.

A geosynchronous, geostationary orbit, that is an orbit so that its position over the earth appears to be exactly over a particular point on the earth’s surface, it must be equatorially positioned such that it’s center of mass is 42.2 Mm (megameters) above the earth’s center of mass, and it must be traveling at 3.07 km/s (kilometers per second).

As with any object in space, the object may have a rotation about any of its three axes, the x-axis, the y-axis, or the z-axis, or any combination thereof. For such an object even to be CONSIDERED to be “aligned with north,” it must have absolutely ZERO rotation about two of its axes (the z-axis and the y-axis) and have a rotation about its x-axis of exactly ONE SIDEREAL DAY, about 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4.9 seconds.

Just to “hover” would require enormous amounts of energy to resist the gravitational pull of the earth on this VERY REAL, VERY PHYSICAL city! It makes NO sense!

Let’s continue with the evidence:

Revelation 21:16

16 And the city lieth (Greek: keitai, meaning “lies outstretched,” according to Strong's) foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
KJV

This word typically means to lie upon something. For instance, the word is used in Matthew 5:14 for "a city that is SET on an hill.” The word is used in Matthew 28:6 for “come see the place where the Lord LAY.” The word is used in Luke 2:12 and 16 for a babe “LYING in a manger.” And, the list goes on in Luke 12:19; 23:53; 24:12; John 2:6 (“set”); 11:41; 19:29 (“there was set”); and 20:5, 6, 7, and 12, usually worded “lie,” “lay,” “laid,” “lying” or “had lain." 

Revelation 21:19-20

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
KJV

The city will have “foundations,” or in Greek, “themelioi.” That’s the SAME WORD that was used in ...

Luke 6:48-49

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
KJV

These are the FOOTERS of the wall of this city! Footers or foundations are typically built on as solid a rock layer as possible, preferably bedrock. It locks down the structure so it’s not going anywhere!

Revelation 21:24-27

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV

The nations of the earth which are rescued and become a part of His Empire and their kings shall bring their fame and valuables into it, but those who defile, do disgusting deeds, or make lies won’t be allowed inside. That is, otherwise, they MIGHT BE ABLE TO get in; however, they will be denied access.

The gates are not shut during the day, but since there will be no night there, it follows that the gates shall not be shut AT ALL!

That would be easier done if the city sat upon the earth with the air pressure of the first level of the city the same as the atmospheric pressure of the ground level outside.

Finally, ...

Revelation 22:1-2

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Thus, the river of water of life flows wherever the street of the city goes. I would assume that the street would go to the gates eventually, wouldn’t you? So, it would make sense that the river would eventually flow out of the gates, three rivers in each of the four compass directions, for a total of twelve rivers to water the face of the New Earth.

These facts all add up to only one possible conclusion: The city will LAND.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Nice to see you again. Remember that this `city` was made in heaven by God, thus the details are but symbols of heavenly substances. Also -

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light.` (Rev. 21: 24)

Thus the New Jerusalem would have to be a certain distance from the earth to give all the nations light - providing daytime & night time for parts of the earth but forever  `no night` in the city. (Rev. 21: 25)

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

 

[Ezra]

Hi Retrobyter,

Nice to see you again. Remember that this `city` was made in heaven by God, thus the details are but symbols of heavenly substances. Also -

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light.` (Rev. 21: 24)

Thus the New Jerusalem would have to be a certain distance from the earth to give all the nations light - providing daytime & night time for parts of the earth but forever  `no night` in the city. (Rev. 21: 25)

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

Exactly.  There was no need for a lengthy dissertation to refute this.  The earth is for redeemed and restored Israel and the nations which are saved.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C. 

Hi Retrobyter,

Nice to see you again. Remember that this `city` was made in heaven by God, thus the details are but symbols of heavenly substances. Also -

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light.` (Rev. 21: 24)

Thus the New Jerusalem would have to be a certain distance from the earth to give all the nations light - providing daytime & night time for parts of the earth but forever  `no night` in the city. (Rev. 21: 25)

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

First, God is NOT restricted to “heaven!” 

Second, the city is a REAL, CONCRETE, SOLID city with dimensions, actual physical substance, and all the necessities for life - water, food, light, and shelter.

Third, while the city IS being constructed in space at this time, it shall not stay there but shall come to this earth and come OUT OF THE SKY!

Fourth, the New Jerusalem does NOT have to be a certain distance from the earth, because it will NOT be the only source of light! There shall still be the sun, the moon, and the stars! Where in the world did you get the notion that the city is the only source of light?!

Fifth, there shall be no night there IN THE CITY! It does NOT say that this is true for the entire earth!

You REALLY NEED to reject and avoid this ethereal, allegorical interpretation of what you read in the Scriptures. It will only lead you into error.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retro,

I agree that God is not restricted to heaven. Do you mean though in making the city? As God`s word says, it is in the third heaven at the moment & then comes down.

`you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...` (Heb. 12: 22)

Thus to me those materials are of a heavenly substance, eternal & not earthly, which are corruptible & will fade away.

Now we`ve had that big discussion of the `heavens` so no need to go there, as we see that differently.

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C. 

Hi Retro,

I agree that God is not restricted to heaven. Do you mean though in making the city? As God`s word says, it is in the third heaven at the moment & then comes down.

`you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...` (Heb. 12: 22)

Thus to me those materials are of a heavenly substance, eternal & not earthly, which are corruptible & will fade away.

Now we`ve had that big discussion of the `heavens` so no need to go there, as we see that differently.

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

Pardon me, but God’s Word does NOT say that the city is "in the third heaven at the moment!" Where’d you get THAT nonsense?! You REALLY need to understand the words that were translated as “heaven,” “heavens,” “heavenly,” “celestial,” and “midst of heaven”:

NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:

KJV - heavenly.

NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky:
KJV - from heaven.

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):

KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky:

KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

NT:3321 mesouranema (mes-oo-ran'-ay-mah); from a presumed compound of NT:3319 and NT:3772; mid-sky:

KJV - midst of heaven.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I don’t know where the fiction of “1st heaven - of clouds, 2nd heaven - of stars, 3rd heaven - God’s abode” came from but it did NOT come from the Scriptures or from the words used for “heaven!” The first time I personally saw it was on page 1239 of the Scofield Reference Bible (KJV).

What DOES come from the Scriptures is PETER’S explanation of a 3rd heaven:

2 Peter 3:1-13

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (the uniformitarianism that gave rise to the theory of evolution)

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water (the 1st heaven and earth = the 1st sky and ground = the ground standing above the waters below the firmament and under the waters above the firmament that fell as rain for 40 days and nights):

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (in the FLOOD):

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the 2nd heaven and earth = the current 2nd sky and ground, the environment in which we currently live), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (in the FIRE on the final day of judgment at the Great White Throne - Rev. 20:11-15).

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (the skies) being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (the ground) shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (the 3rd heaven and earth = the future 3rd sky and ground, the SAME SKY AND GROUND upon which the New Jerusalem will land).
KJV

It’s NOT a “third heaven” (or “third sky”) by position; it’s a “third sky” by TIME! 1 = PAST, 2 = PRESENT, 3 = FUTURE!

The city is currently ABOVE the sky, ABOVE the 2nd sky!

Hebrews 12:22

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV

The Greek word “epouranios” is the word translated “heavenly” in this verse. As noted above, the word is an adjective meaning “ABOVE the sky!"

Revelation 21:2

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

The above information should be seen not as a single step, “coming down from God out of heaven,” but as TWO steps: “coming down from God” and “(coming) out of heaven.” God does send it down, but it comes out of the sky; i.e., it comes down to the ground.