Esther4:14 Posted October 12, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Frankly, in my opinion, the most disappointing aspect of considering this subject is how poorly men lead in the church today period. Unfortunately, being a woman in the church today often puts you in the position of being chastised for being disobedient if you do not submit to inadequate men in authority. It is just really pathetic. I mean really, even the illustration. The pastor wants her to drive the van and the husband wants her at home. Oh my goodness. It just baffles the mind the way men insult the intelligence of a woman and will still defend that this is not an attempt to insult their intelligence, and that there is Biblical support for the tug of war between the pastor and the husband and the wife who just drives the van all day. What's a girl to do? I tell you what a girl does. She says forget both of you trying to spiritually oppress me, and goes and gets a job that allows her to use her intelligence and creativity for more than driving a van while the men battle over who she supposed to listen to, from a Biblical perspective. The problem with the way the church teaches the feminist movement is that they forget that they were completely inactive in the endeavor to provide any equality and creative freedom of expression for woman. The secular world had to do this. Just like Jesus offered salvation to gentiles after His people rejected Him as well. "And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, ‘The old is good.’”(Luke 5:39). Frankly, the structure of pastoral ministry is very outdated overall. The church would be better off participating in some sort of study than sitting in a Sunday service. Like babies drinking bottles is what a Sunday service is in our day and age. It is no wonder so many are distracted by the many things being fed to us in the media when they gain no spiritual maturity in modern church settings and are forced to see stagnating spiritual maturity as obedience to a pastoral shepherd. We would probably all be better off without what we have come to expect of a pastor in the church today. Edited October 12, 2015 by Esther4:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Practical experience has taught us that women can be very capable and independent while achieving great success. However if this is not what Gods intended end of a woman is then even if she gain rulership of the whole world she is a failure in Gods eyes. And so is her stay at home husband if that not be what God made man for. We should all seek to understand what God created us to be and live within those roles lest we be found causing confusion and some sort of gender identity crisis that leads to the acceptance of homosexual marriage........too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 It says to the women in... Ephesians 5:22 - wives submit yourselves unto your "own" husbands... I have personally seen in my walk with the Lord how some pastors over step their bounds in the authority they have in individuals personal family lives. The scripture plainly says that the wives are to submit themselves unto their own husbands. My questions and thoughts are centered around just how much rule (authority) does a pastor or any spiritual leaders have in our personal lives? Are the pastor ursurping their authority in the families according to the word? How do others view the scripture in light of leadership positions verses the position of individual men being over their own wives and the wives being instructed not to submit to anyone but their own husbands. . while I can appreciate your interpretation of the scripture from the perspective that it does say her "own" husband, I do not believe that that is correct when veiwed as "only" her own husband but rather "primarily" instead. A pastor is not a Lord over a flock but yet an overseer or shepard. Their place is to protect the flock by leading it to green pastures and making them lie down beside the still waters while defending against preditors who would consume them. His weapon is the word of God which is the sword of the Spirit. The preditors are evil spirits that come from within and without. Does the wife have to obey the pastors voice? Only when he speaks by the Spirit of God. An example: Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buriedher by her husband. Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the Do you not understand that primarily mean first and foremost, mainly. I don't believe the scripture in which you used fits the subject matter in which I bring up. However I do realize and recognize as I always have that spiritual leadership does have authority in the church but I question how far does that authority go into our personal lives. I also know there are familiar spirits that are close to the voice of God but they are in fact not HIS voice at all and we can be conned and tricked into things thinking they are from God. I believe there is a line that should not be crossed and spiritual leaders can ursurp the authority God gave to others especially the home. The authority and power given unto men by God is for the edification of the body and not their destruction. God is judge. If a man manipulates for his own fleshly gain then he will get his reward. If a man however commands Gods people to their good he shall also be rewarded. I am not convinced that the scripture teaches that a husband has sole authority over a wife. But lets not forget that the Lord said that we won't Lord over one another as the gentiles do. Our governing is different. I think perhaps this is a new subject area for you and that is okay it is good for us to dig a little deeper so we will be fully persuaded in our own minds. Husbands have to be protectors of their own homes. Satan is very subtle and will play on the weaker vessel to get to the whole family in things that look so innocent good and right as the devil likes to put a slight twist on things in order to deceive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted October 12, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2015 Frankly, in my opinion, the most disappointing aspect of considering this subject is how poorly men lead in the church today period... We would probably all be better off without what we have come to expect of a pastor in the church today. That is primarily because the true New Testament teaching on church leadership and shepherding (a plurality of elders) has generally been abandoned, and a pastoral ministry is considered a career rather than a calling (hence academic qualifications). At the same time, there is blame on both sides. You will hardly find an evangelical church today that is advertising for a pastoral opening and not insisting that the man have a Master of Divinity degree, instead of whether he has the spiritual maturity and the qualifications of an elder, and the gifts ans calling of a pastor, teacher, and evangelist. Above all that he preaches the truth without fear of favor, and is a genuine shepherd, not merely a preacher. Let's examine one ad:The successful candidate will be faith-filled and Spirit-led, will be strong in pastoral care, will be gifted in preaching and teaching the Bible with life applications, [SCRIPTURAL]will be able to organize and lead staff, [WANTING A BUSINESS EXECUTIVE]will be able to counsel... [SCRIPTURAL]and resolve conflicts... [SECULAR]and will be mission-minded. [SCRIPTURAL]The candidate will at a minimum hold a bachelor’s degree in theology or related field,...[ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS A MUST, BUT NOT SCRIPTURAL]...have a proven record of pastoring a church or related experience in ministry. [SCRIPTURAL]The successful candidate will be a mature Christian and visionary leader with the ability and wisdom to motivate and mobilize staff, lay leaders, and the congregation as a whole to accomplish God’s will [ONE MAN EXPECTED TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF A GROUP OF ELDERS]Many men who do preach the truth are shunted out of their positions, or compelled to leave because their churches want to be contemporary, and follow every wind of doctrine. Check out the trends in worship and see how many churches now have "contemporary worship". Then we have the influence of feminism in modern churches where some women want to be "equal" (if not superior) to their husbands. We have genderless Bible versions being published, women as preachers and teachers being ordained as "pastors", and the list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacemakerIND Posted October 12, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 94 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 475 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/23/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1962 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Frankly, in my opinion, the most disappointing aspect of considering this subject is how poorly men lead in the church today period... We would probably all be better off without what we have come to expect of a pastor in the church today. That is primarily because the true New Testament teaching on church leadership and shepherding (a plurality of elders) has generally been abandoned, and a pastoral ministry is considered a career rather than a calling (hence academic qualifications). At the same time, there is blame on both sides. You will hardly find an evangelical church today that is advertising for a pastoral opening and not insisting that the man have a Master of Divinity degree, instead of whether he has the spiritual maturity and the qualifications of an elder, and the gifts ans calling of a pastor, teacher, and evangelist. Above all that he preaches the truth without fear of favor, and is a genuine shepherd, not merely a preacher. Let's examine one ad:The successful candidate will be faith-filled and Spirit-led, will be strong in pastoral care, will be gifted in preaching and teaching the Bible with life applications, [SCRIPTURAL]will be able to organize and lead staff, [WANTING A BUSINESS EXECUTIVE]will be able to counsel... [SCRIPTURAL]and resolve conflicts... [SECULAR]and will be mission-minded. [SCRIPTURAL]The candidate will at a minimum hold a bachelor’s degree in theology or related field,...[ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS A MUST, BUT NOT SCRIPTURAL]...have a proven record of pastoring a church or related experience in ministry. [SCRIPTURAL]The successful candidate will be a mature Christian and visionary leader with the ability and wisdom to motivate and mobilize staff, lay leaders, and the congregation as a whole to accomplish God’s will [ONE MAN EXPECTED TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF A GROUP OF ELDERS]Many men who do preach the truth are shunted out of their positions, or compelled to leave because their churches want to be contemporary, and follow every wind of doctrine. Check out the trends in worship and see how many churches now have "contemporary worship". Then we have the influence of feminism in modern churches where some women want to be "equal" (if not superior) to their husbands. We have genderless Bible versions being published, women as preachers and teachers being ordained as "pastors", and the list goes on.More freedom making women as preachers in Churches.. we can't see the women in new testament as shepherds are leaders for church.. they are always took the important role in church as helpers.. More freedom and more money power making present church to take wrong decisions in all... very sad things are happening in present church.. there are many works are running to satisfy the people but not God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Frankly, in my opinion, the most disappointing aspect of considering this subject is how poorly men lead in the church today period. Unfortunately, being a woman in the church today often puts you in the position of being chastised for being disobedient if you do not submit to inadequate men in authority. It is just really pathetic. I mean really, even the illustration. The pastor wants her to drive the van and the husband wants her at home. Oh my goodness. It just baffles the mind the way men insult the intelligence of a woman and will still defend that this is not an attempt to insult their intelligence, and that there is Biblical support for the tug of war between the pastor and the husband and the wife who just drives the van all day. What's a girl to do? I tell you what a girl does. She says forget both of you trying to spiritually oppress me, and goes and gets a job that allows her to use her intelligence and creativity for more than driving a van while the men battle over who she supposed to listen to, from a Biblical perspective. The problem with the way the church teaches the feminist movement is that they forget that they were completely inactive in the endeavor to provide any equality and creative freedom of expression for woman. The secular world had to do this. Just like Jesus offered salvation to gentiles after His people rejected Him as well. "And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, ‘The old is good.’”(Luke 5:39). Frankly, the structure of pastoral ministry is very outdated overall. The church would be better off participating in some sort of study than sitting in a Sunday service. Like babies drinking bottles is what a Sunday service is in our day and age. It is no wonder so many are distracted by the many things being fed to us in the media when they gain no spiritual maturity in modern church settings and are forced to see stagnating spiritual maturity as obedience to a pastoral shepherd. We would probably all be better off without what we have come to expect of a pastor in the church today. I have seen the pastors of churches drive wedges between husbands and wives even in far worse ways than described in the example. I believe a married couple should be on guard against this subtle attacks because the last thing we want to happen as Satan is working to destroy is to throw up our hands. One clue should be our peace is taking away from us as strife and confusion takes it's place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esther4:14 Posted October 13, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 603 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 628 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2015 Frankly, in my opinion, the most disappointing aspect of considering this subject is how poorly men lead in the church today period... We would probably all be better off without what we have come to expect of a pastor in the church today. That is primarily because the true New Testament teaching on church leadership and shepherding (a plurality of elders) has generally been abandoned, and a pastoral ministry is considered a career rather than a calling (hence academic qualifications). At the same time, there is blame on both sides. You will hardly find an evangelical church today that is advertising for a pastoral opening and not insisting that the man have a Master of Divinity degree, instead of whether he has the spiritual maturity and the qualifications of an elder, and the gifts ans calling of a pastor, teacher, and evangelist. Above all that he preaches the truth without fear of favor, and is a genuine shepherd, not merely a preacher. Let's examine one ad:You know I have to agree with what you are saying. However, I do think there is an important lesson within the phenomenon of feminism and the positive effect that it has had on the church as well. I think this represents the responsibility that the church should have had to lead in this area rather than holding to former patriarchal views. I have a book called "In Her Place" by S.T Joshi, which is a collection of essays from prominent men from about mid 19th century to early 20th century sharing their opinion for why woman should not vote, go to school, and should stay at home because this was her place. The church was never at the forefront of encouraging women to be educated or be able to vote, neither of which hinder their ability to stay home and raise children. I think there is a lesson in this, because I read some of these essays and men were not so likely to share what the Bible says about woman the way that they do now from a Christian perspective that has had to accept the impact of the feminist movement in the many ways that were not contrary to the what the Bible says about the role of women. Therefore, I think that the pastoral office has a long way to go before they will be able to regain the reigns of leadership within our communities; and, unfortunately, they do not appear to be actively trying to do this as you have pointed out about the increase in career pastors rather than pastors who make a career of a calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted October 13, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I have seen the pastors of churches drive wedges between husbands and wives even in far worse ways than described in the example.... I believe a married couple should be on guard against this subtle attack....because the last thing we want to happen is Satan....working to destroy is to throw up our hands....I tell you what a girl does.... She says forget both of you trying to spiritually oppress me....and goes and gets a job that allows her to use her intelligence and creativity for more than driving a van....while the men battle over who she supposed to listen to....from a Biblical perspective.... ~MarriageFor this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.What therefore God hath joined together,let not man put asunder. Mark 10:7-9And His PowerAnd it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:17-18And What Kind Of Man (Or Woman) Would Dare Deny Jesus Is In The Girl???Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:20-21I Ask....He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. 1 Samuel 2:8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 13, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,355 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,545 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Frankly, in my opinion, the most disappointing aspect of considering this subject is how poorly men lead in the church today period. Unfortunately, being a woman in the church today often puts you in the position of being chastised for being disobedient if you do not submit to inadequate men in authority. It is just really pathetic. I mean really, even the illustration. The pastor wants her to drive the van and the husband wants her at home. Oh my goodness. It just baffles the mind the way men insult the intelligence of a woman and will still defend that this is not an attempt to insult their intelligence, and that there is Biblical support for the tug of war between the pastor and the husband and the wife who just drives the van all day. What's a girl to do? I tell you what a girl does. She says forget both of you trying to spiritually oppress me, and goes and gets a job that allows her to use her intelligence and creativity for more than driving a van while the men battle over who she supposed to listen to, from a Biblical perspective. The problem with the way the church teaches the feminist movement is that they forget that they were completely inactive in the endeavor to provide any equality and creative freedom of expression for woman. The secular world had to do this. Just like Jesus offered salvation to gentiles after His people rejected Him as well. "And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, ‘The old is good.’”(Luke 5:39). Frankly, the structure of pastoral ministry is very outdated overall. The church would be better off participating in some sort of study than sitting in a Sunday service. Like babies drinking bottles is what a Sunday service is in our day and age. It is no wonder so many are distracted by the many things being fed to us in the media when they gain no spiritual maturity in modern church settings and are forced to see stagnating spiritual maturity as obedience to a pastoral shepherd. We would probably all be better off without what we have come to expect of a pastor in the church today. The Lord says that when we serve Him we will be considered foolish by many... but satan's ploy is to take the attention off of what is truly important and put it upon that which is not!The children are our best soil to work within and those who have parents that will not come to church but will allow their children to come need transportation...To take our eyes off the ball and make it an issue of degradation in opportunity is of course self evident. To take anything, in spiritual areas of need, and place sexist agenda is loss.Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 It says to the women in...Ephesians 5:22 - wives submit yourselves unto your "own" husbands...I have personally seen in my walk with the Lord how some pastors over step their bounds in the authority they have in individuals personal family lives. The scripture plainly says that the wives are to submit themselves unto their own husbands. My questions and thoughts are centered around just how much rule (authority) does a pastor or any spiritual leaders have in our personal lives? Are the pastor ursurping their authority in the families according to the word? How do others view the scripture in light of leadership positions verses the position of individual men being over their own wives and the wives being instructed not to submit to anyone but their own husbands..The Pastor, assuming he is doing the office of a Bishop, as most do, has the oversight of the church and what goes on there. As such, if a married woman is teaching a class or holding an office, he has the right to set standards and a job description. He can do things like that, but he shouldn't try to push a married woman to do jobs when her husband is opposed to it, by putting a guilt trip on her. They can try to manipulate her into doing things she doesn't even feel the Lord is leading her to do, and make it appear that anything he says is the voice of God. According to the Bible, her own husband is her spiritual head, and his authority is always above the authority of the church leadership. I haven't read through the entire thread, but those are my thoughts on what you asked in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts