Matthew 27:46

[SavedOnebyGrace]

This is taken from the Hebraic Roots Bible, which was translated by a private ministry and is free online in different formats from http://www.coyhwh.com/en/bible.php  I was fortunate enough to find this about a year ago when I finally got fed up with the KJV only debates and Bibles printed by Zondervan.  I do believe that the KJV corrupted the work of Erasmus and intentionally made it poetic and intentionally evolved the English language to create a barrier to understanding, and Zondervan prints questionable material.  A Bible publisher should have standards that exclude material from being printed.  If you can print some material that is questionable, it is suspicious that the Bible would be printed with integrity.  

I enjoy this version, as I do enjoy using Tyndale's version.  Tyndale's version is very easy to read once you get past the differences in spelling.  

Anyways, Matthew 27:46 in the Hebraic Roots Bible reads: 

"And about the ninth hour, Yahshua cried out with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama shabakthani; that is My El, My El, why did You honor Me to be here?"   

This is a very familiar verse that usually reads 

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (KJV).  

which caused me to investigate the reason for changing forsaken to honor.  

The footnotes of the Hebraic Roots Bible reads "This verse has been greatly misquoted as the original Aramaic can mean to leave in a good way, such as if you  were an owner of a company and had to go away and left someone very trusted to care for your business while you were gone.  From Isaiah 63:1-9, we see that only Messiah qualified to redeem Israel and it is stating here the honor given to Him for His perfect life and sacrifice," (p. 1215).  

According to Strong's Concordance, the word in Greek can stress towards a positive or stress towards a negative.

Therefore, the word might not technically be translated wrong, per se; however, English has many more words in our vocabulary and is not required for this word to hold a positive or negative meaning.  We have other words to describe positive experiences, while we commonly use this word to describe negative ones.

However, this has not stopped us in the church from creating a positive narrative to go with this word that describes a negative experience in English.  I have heard many extra-Biblical descriptions like how this verse is describing a separation between Jesus and God for the time that He was hanging on the cross for our sins.  We have created this story to go along with it that describes and dramatizes the experience of the cross with something that is mentioned no where else in scripture.  No where does Jesus say that He does not want to die on the cross because it will separate Him from the Father.

It is common that we attach His time in Gethsemane to accentuate the way we have reconciled using a word that more often has a negative experience in English from a word that carries both meaning in languages of antiquity.  We explain that this experience of separation would have been why Jesus asked that this cup might pass from Him-because it would be too much for Him to have to be separated from the Father during His time on the cross (Matthew 26:39).

So, we know whether we know that the word held a double meaning in the original language or not, that using the word forsaken does not hold the same meaning that we commonly believe when we use this word at other times.  We instinctively know that this is not the same meaning, which is why we have created multiple narratives to explain this verse in a positive way.  In other words, we know that He does not leave Jesus because He is dying on the cross whether we use the word forsake or not.

Now, when compare this verse with the last words of Jesus from the other Gospels how does it compare.

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34).  

Mark is said to be the first gospel and Matthew is said to have been derived from this original text, so the verses repeat for the same reason.  The actual word translated is used to stress positively and negatively.

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46)

Luke is also said to have derived from the gospel of Mark; however, he transcribes a experience that translates in a positive experience of finishing on the cross using different words.  

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30).  

John's gospel speaks of a positive experience of accomplishment as well.  

Therefore, all four gospels translate towards a positive experience.  So, if we change the word forsake to a word that more clearly translates a positive experience in the English language, we are given a completely different experience from the text.  Instead of reconciling the way it sounds like Jesus is saying He is forsaken because we instinctively know that is not what is happening.  When we use a word like honor, he is no longer separated from the Father on the cross the way He does not appear to be in the other gospel accounts.  He is being comforted.  It is as though the Father is with Him while He is on the cross, comforting Him, telling Him how He will be honored and how all the things He has promised to Him will be fulfilled because He has been obedient to the point of suffering death on the cross.  

It changes what we expect if we were to experience suffering as well if we were to clearly see how the Father never left His side, but was comforting Him and reminding of the reward that was set before Him for finishing the race set before Him (Hebrews 12:1).  

This is a narrative that is much more more consistent with the other Gospel accounts and the rest of scripture considering how frequently we read "he will never leave you nor forsake you" (Deuteronomy 31:6; Hebrews 13:5; Genesis 28:15; 1 Kings 8:57; etc).  In fact, it is probably because of this that we have never been comfortable believing that Jesus was ever saying He was forsaken.  

What do you think? 

 

 

I read many translations, so when this one came out, I checked it out online.  At that time I was interested in how they handled the eye of the needle.  There's basically two ways of looking at this passage but they managed to come up with a third.  While interesting, I didn't feel I could trust it.  I'll stick with the KJV, NKJV, NASB, HCSB, ESV, NIV, YLT and Amplified Bible, plus a couple of dozen commentaries and key word dictionaries.  And of course, I have e-Sword and The Word computer software.

[Ezra]

 

Apparently, using the original Aramaic texts is something that is growing popular within the Messianic church...

There are no "original Aramaic texts". The Greek text was translated into the Aramaic, not the other way around.  If you are not familiar with the Peshitta, then please take note:

The general, but not universal, consensus among Bible scholars is that the Old Testament of the Peshitta was translated into Syriac from the Hebrew, probably in the 2nd century AD, and that the New Testament of the Peshitta was translated from the Greek.

In any event, there is no discrepancy between the Gospels, and the epistles make it crystal clear that not only was Christ crucified and His blood shed, but that He suffered as no man has suffered, and was indeed "forsaken" by the Father while He was made Sin for us.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings,,,,,,,,

        I would like to ask one question,,,,,,,,,,"Why would there be any honor in crucifixion",,,,,,,simple logic tells us that the word "honor" could not possibly fit anywhere in the equation,,,,,

      Besides the painful,horrific,torturous,excrutiating,agony Jesus suffered(in our place) ,,,he also bore our shame by being humiliated,naked on the cross,,,,,where is the "honor" in this? De-humanizing,beyond embarrassing , hanging (nailed) on a cross in public for all to see,,,,,,uggh      That is another one of the enemies feeble attempts to minimize what Christ did for all of us.

       Being forsaken would have been the eternal state for each & every one of us had Jesus not suffered it,,,,,,,,outer darkness,the absence of God,,,,hell            very important Word,Glory to God ,Praise Jesus

                                                                                                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

                                     

[Esther4:14]

Blessings,,,,,,,,

        I would like to ask one question,,,,,,,,,,"Why would there be any honor in crucifixion",,,,,,,simple logic tells us that the word "honor" could not possibly fit anywhere in the equation,,,,,

      Besides the painful,horrific,torturous,excrutiating,agony Jesus suffered(in our place) ,,,he also bore our shame by being humiliated,naked on the cross,,,,,where is the "honor" in this? De-humanizing,beyond embarrassing , hanging (nailed) on a cross in public for all to see,,,,,,uggh      That is another one of the enemies feeble attempts to minimize what Christ did for all of us.

       Being forsaken would have been the eternal state for each & every one of us had Jesus not suffered it,,,,,,,,outer darkness,the absence of God,,,,hell            very important Word,Glory to God ,Praise Jesus

                                                                                                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

                                     

Hi Kwik,

I think honor actually fits better within the context of the Gospels than the word forsaken within our modern understanding and use of the word.  Even when you consider Psalm 22 because Jesus was not David.  Jesus was the Son of God who was frequently rebuking people for their lack of faith.  For example, when Peter was attempting to encourage Him by telling Him He would not suffer on the cross, He responded, "But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” (Mark 8:33).  I just find it hard to believe that He would contradict the strength of His message to have faith by resorting to the same complaint of David, who was a man after God's own heart, but that didn't mean that He didn't have the heart of a man.  

Additionally, the context of the New Testament centers around rejoicing in suffering, or considering it an honor to suffer for the cause of Christ.  

"And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;" (Romans 5:3).

"That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthians 12:10).  

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds," (James 1:2).  

As well as, when you cross reference the final words of Jesus with the other Gospels, the context improves when you change the stress of the word from a negative to a positive.  

Therefore, it would also contexts transitions better from the life of Christ to the building of the early church if Jesus were to say that He were being honored rather than forsaken because you never see them teaching the early church that we should rejoice in suffering even when we suffer to the point we feel forsaken.  

There is another man who is also translating the New Testament scriptures from the Aramaic who uses the word spared instead of honor.  So, it would read, "My God, My God, why have you spared me," and this allows us to see the same strength of Christ that He demonstrated during His ministry.  

"The people were amazed at his teaching, for he taught with real authority--quite unlike the teachers of religious law" (Mark 1:22).  

I have also learned from personal experience that you only feel forsaken when you don't understand why the Lord is putting you through trials and Jesus fully understood His purpose in life.  In my own experience, the times when I was suffering pushed me to learn the truth that lies cause a lot of the suffering in the world.  In other words, I feel honored now that I am going through a trial because the trial is what spares me from believing lies and brings me closer to Him.  Therefore, I find it hard to believe that He ever felt forsaken especially when He was near the end of His time of suffering that He knew He would have to endure to begin with and His suffering is one of the many things that sets Him apart from the rest of us.  In suffering, He was honored, not forsaken.  He was spared by being able to return to the Father.  He knew He was going to be with the Father in a few moments.  Why would he have the same complaint as David who sought Him in a much more limited understanding than Christ.  

Peace.   

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Esther

   Because you think that a word is better does not make it the Word of God,,,,,,,we Honor Christ for what He did on the cross(for us) & for WHO He is but there was no honor in the crucifixion ,,,,,,that is one of the main points of it,,,,,,,I truly do not understand why you do not see that,,,,,,,

     You are taking all the Scripture verses you have quoted & trying to support what you are mis-interpreting,Sister   We cannot pick & choose verses out of context and use thexm in the wrong application.  Firstly, talking about a person being honored to suffer for Christ's sake has nothing to do with what we are talking about,there is no comparison,we are talking about GOD,not men,,,,,,,,

      Christ ,(God)came here as a man,He reduced Himself to servitude from His position on the Throne,the King of kings,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he came humbly,He even went to the cross as a Lamb & He didn't say a Word,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,again,it bears repeating,by what you are saying ,you are minimizing the entire crucifixion,what Jesus went through

       I have nothing to add,,,,,,,except,,,,,modern understanding of word usage has nothing to do with changing Words that are Written,Gods Word does not change & neither does His Truth             God Bless you                            With love in Christ,Kwik

Edited October 30, 2015 by kwikphilly
hit "post" accidentally before completion

[Ezra]

Once we begin superimposing our own imaginations on Scripture, there is no end to the fantasies we can create. Theological liberalism and all the cults and False Christianity have done exactly that.  If the Son of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- cried out in sheer agony of body, soul and spirit "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" then that is a precise and accurate description of what occurred on the Cross during those three dark hours. This was "the affliction of the afflicted".  Only Matthew and Mark have recorded these words, but they were uttered prophetically 1,000 years before the crucifixion (Psalm 22).

[MorningGlory]

Have you seen what americans do unrighteously ?  They honor the fallen dead for giving their lives for wicked men as long as the way they do it is in line with public perception. 

 

Yahweh has and always planned with Yeshua to honor the Name of Yeshua above every other Name, and Yeshua knew it before creating the universe and the world and everything in it.    SIN was no surprise.  Everything about it was always known.....

as it is also written "a man might possible die for a righteous man, but for a wicked man who would dare die ?", 

and "when we were still dead((completely wicked too)) , Yeshua died for us".  Perfect Obedience to the Father, Planned forever past to show His glory forever future.

It's not just Americans that honor the fallen, jeff.  Don't understand your point.

[MorningGlory]

"I can't go back to Iraq"
"That's why I can't go back to Iraq," says US Army Specialist Darrell Anderson. "You can't have a normal life after killing innocent people."

 

Davida,  ((which I always knew was a woman's name)), Originally I posted in reply to why the crucifixion was honorable when it was also so horrible in infinite number of ways - Yeshua Messiah crucified, willingly and with JOY ahead of Him and A NAME above every other name ....    (((P.S> and millions of believers ((HONORABLY BY SCRIPTURE IN YAHWEH'S SIGHT TOO)) executed as martyrs for their faith in the last hundred years,  WITHOUT RESISTING)))

Since posting,  I spent 3 hours looking at the history of the united states related to war and war crimes, 

and the above quote is the LEAST of hundreds of web pages of evidence that the united states never told the truth willingly ABOUT WHY WE WENT TO WAR ((and still has not admitted over 90% of what happened))

 

NOR about the uncountable atrocities by the united states and it's corporations and it's troops in viet nam or in any war since then...... 

and the massive dessertions/ awols/ conscientious objectors to what they all call UNJUST WARS FOR MONEY,  murdering more INNOCENT CIVILIANS than military.... afghanistan, iran, iraq, etc etc 

and covering it up, officially, with more false reports and lies from top to bottom.

If you think that anyone did something honorably,  go ahead and think that.  You have a lot of company,  but not if the trust is revealed.   IF ANYONE DOUBTS THIS,    spend the next 3 hours searching for yourselves and see what generals to privates, reports and politicians, and a lot of other countries , have disclosed about the usa involvement anywhere after wwII.......     ((yes,  maybe there's some exceptions,  but 100 wrongs and 3 rights don't make anything else right ))

i'm sure if any of us spent three hours searching nothing but conspiracy websites and anti-American garbage sites like you do, we would come up with the same tripe you just served up.  Your post is one to be ashamed of but I'm sure you're not.  I've no idea if you're American or not but, if you are, you're a prime example of a REAL atrocity. 

[Ezra]

Jeff,

You seem to be missing the point entirely (and also bringing irrelevancies into this thread, such as the sacrifice of soldiers). There are two sides to the crucifixion of Christ, and both must be maintained in a proper Scriptural balance.  We know from all of Scripture that the sacrifice of Christ would ultimately redound to the glory of God and of Christ.  But that is NOT the issue here. The issue is "Was Jesus separated from, and forsaken by the Father as He was literally made Sin for us, and a Curse for us?" And the answer is found in the very words of Christ.

The Bible (and history) tell us that this was not only a dishonorable death, but it was the cruellest of Roman punishments. But when we look at the agony of the Cross and how it relates to the eternal separation of humanity from God, it is more than the shame and dishonor of crucifixion. It is God's righteous wrath against sin and sinners that was poured out upon the holy soul of Christ. Either Christ was forsaken so that we would be reconciled to God, or we all would be utterly forsaken in Hell without that penalty being paid on the Cross.

Esther,

You talk about "extra-biblical" interpretations, but what you are trying to do in this thread is undermine the truth about the sufferings of Christ.  The sufferings of Christ were as much a necessity as the actual crucifixion and the shedding of His precious blood.  Search the Scriptures, and do not be deceived into imaginations and fantasies.  We are not talking about "the glory that should follow" but about the literal and spiritual sufferings of Christ for humanity. "The death of the cross" (Phil 2:8) is much broader, and deeper, and more comprehensive than most Christians really understand.  No man will ever be able to enter into those sufferings, or fully understand what Christ endured as He suffered on that Cross.

[FresnoJoe]

This is taken from the Hebraic Roots Bible, which was translated by a private ministry and is free online in different formats from http://www.coyhwh.com/en/bible.php  I was fortunate enough to find this about a year ago when I finally got fed up with the KJV only debates and Bibles printed by Zondervan.  I do believe that the KJV corrupted the work of Erasmus and intentionally made it poetic and intentionally evolved the English language to create a barrier to understanding, and Zondervan prints questionable material.  A Bible publisher should have standards that exclude material from being printed.  If you can print some material that is questionable, it is suspicious that the Bible would be printed with integrity.  

I enjoy this version, as I do enjoy using Tyndale's version.  Tyndale's version is very easy to read once you get past the differences in spelling.  

Anyways, Matthew 27:46 in the Hebraic Roots Bible reads: 

"And about the ninth hour, Yahshua cried out with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama shabakthani; that is My El, My El, why did You honor Me to be here?"   

This is a very familiar verse that usually reads 

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (KJV).  

which caused me to investigate the reason for changing forsaken to honor.  

The footnotes of the Hebraic Roots Bible reads "This verse has been greatly misquoted as the original Aramaic can mean to leave in a good way, such as if you  were an owner of a company and had to go away and left someone very trusted to care for your business while you were gone.  From Isaiah 63:1-9, we see that only Messiah qualified to redeem Israel and it is stating here the honor given to Him for His perfect life and sacrifice," (p. 1215).  

According to Strong's Concordance, the word in Greek can stress towards a positive or stress towards a negative.  

Therefore, the word might not technically be translated wrong, per se; however, English has many more words in our vocabulary and is not required for this word to hold a positive or negative meaning.  We have other words to describe positive experiences, while we commonly use this word to describe negative ones.  

However, this has not stopped us in the church from creating a positive narrative to go with this word that describes a negative experience in English.  I have heard many extra-Biblical descriptions like how this verse is describing a separation between Jesus and God for the time that He was hanging on the cross for our sins.  We have created this story to go along with it that describes and dramatizes the experience of the cross with something that is mentioned no where else in scripture.  No where does Jesus say that He does not want to die on the cross because it will separate Him from the Father.  

It is common that we attach His time in Gethsemane to accentuate the way we have reconciled using a word that more often has a negative experience in English from a word that carries both meaning in languages of antiquity.  We explain that this experience of separation would have been why Jesus asked that this cup might pass from Him-because it would be too much for Him to have to be separated from the Father during His time on the cross (Matthew 26:39).  

So, we know whether we know that the word held a double meaning in the original language or not, that using the word forsaken does not hold the same meaning that we commonly believe when we use this word at other times.  We instinctively know that this is not the same meaning, which is why we have created multiple narratives to explain this verse in a positive way.  In other words, we know that He does not leave Jesus because He is dying on the cross whether we use the word forsake or not.  

Now, when compare this verse with the last words of Jesus from the other Gospels how does it compare.  

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34).  

Mark is said to be the first gospel and Matthew is said to have been derived from this original text, so the verses repeat for the same reason.  The actual word translated is used to stress positively and negatively.

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46)

Luke is also said to have derived from the gospel of Mark; however, he transcribes a experience that translates in a positive experience of finishing on the cross using different words.  

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30).  

John's gospel speaks of a positive experience of accomplishment as well.  

Therefore, all four gospels translate towards a positive experience.  So, if we change the word forsake to a word that more clearly translates a positive experience in the English language, we are given a completely different experience from the text.  Instead of reconciling the way it sounds like Jesus is saying He is forsaken because we instinctively know that is not what is happening.  When we use a word like honor, he is no longer separated from the Father on the cross the way He does not appear to be in the other gospel accounts.  He is being comforted.  It is as though the Father is with Him while He is on the cross, comforting Him, telling Him how He will be honored and how all the things He has promised to Him will be fulfilled because He has been obedient to the point of suffering death on the cross.  

It changes what we expect if we were to experience suffering as well if we were to clearly see how the Father never left His side, but was comforting Him and reminding of the reward that was set before Him for finishing the race set before Him (Hebrews 12:1).  

This is a narrative that is much more more consistent with the other Gospel accounts and the rest of scripture considering how frequently we read "he will never leave you nor forsake you" (Deuteronomy 31:6; Hebrews 13:5; Genesis 28:15; 1 Kings 8:57; etc).  In fact, it is probably because of this that we have never been comfortable believing that Jesus was ever saying He was forsaken.  

What do you think? 

What I Think

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou art holy, O thou that man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this. Psalms 22 (King James Version)

Love, Your Brother Joe