When is Satan/Dragon/Devil thrown out of Heaven

[WilliamL]

When we see the word “heaven” in Revelation 12:3,4,7,8, we automatically assume that this is a reference to the third heaven (where the throne of God is located). But then we see the word “heavens” (plural) in verse 12, which should immediately remind us that there are indeed three heavens (the atmosphere and stratosphere, which is the first heaven, outer space, which is the second heaven, and Heaven itself, which is the third heaven).

Ancient Hebraic teachings say that the three heavens are levels of 1) soul/nephesh, 2) spirit/ruach, and 3) breath-light/neshamah, each having its own resident spirits. The second heaven is the level of the throne of judgment, wherein the seraphim are resident. Is. 6

The first/lowest heaven is that wherein the cherubim reside. Ezek. 10:20

Our world is where ophanim reside. Ezek. 1:15ff.

The highest heaven is the Sanctuary above, into which Jesus came to minister as HIgh Priest.

When "God sits on his throne," like a king does, he is lowering himself in order to be able to deal with subjects of a lower level than himself, like a king does when he holds court. This is why the heavenly throne is not the highest heaven, but one level lower.

Sorry, but this is inconsistent with Scripture, and the rabbis did include a lot of imaginative conjectures into their teachings.  Let's stick with the New Testament.

Uh, OK, so then show us the Scriptures that say that the three heavens are "the atmosphere and stratosphere is the first heaven, outer space is the second heaven, and Heaven itself is the third heaven." And  to be fair, I guess you should "stick with the New Testament." Fair enough?

[WilliamL]

William

 

Yes, Satan and his minions are coming to the earth at the beginning of the tribulation and not on his terms but the Lord's

As far as the "man child" idea I have to disagree .... this is the Lord and not some super grouping of "Christians" who will slay dragons in the tribulation

Revelation 12 is all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan .... not today's church

Of Jesus, it is not said that "they overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Rev. 12:11

[WilliamL]

DANIEL 9:26  And after the 62 weeks/sevens [of years], Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself. And the people of the ruler who is to come he shall cause to but destroy [Hiphil Perfect tense] the city and the sanctuary^.

So how can Satan rule in Jerusalem from the Temple, if the AC has city and temple destroyed?

William

Christ was crucified at the end of the 69th week  CHECK

The temple and city were destroyed by Titus in 70 AD. This is Dan 9:26b - The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.  The end will come like a flood.  War will continue until the end, and desolation's have been decreed. CHECK, except that it was Vespasian that was responsible for setting Titus to his task.

Now v. 27 is a different character and frame of time altogether.  He will confirm a covenant with many for One - Seven.  In the middle of the Seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.  And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that cause desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.  AND WHO IS THE "HE" WHO WILL CONFIRM THE COVENANT FOR ONE WEEK? THE CLEAR ANTECEDENT IS THE COMING PRINCE OF DANIEL 9:26. As I have pointed out before, the verbs are in the Hiphil tense: "he will cause to destroy," and "he will cause to confirm a covenant." The same nagiyd/leader/ruler/captain/prince causes both of these things. You cannot separate the verses, they refer to the same individual that is causing the events to take place.

Therefore, unless you are saying that Vespasian will be raised from the dead to carry out the acts of the 70th week in the End Times, your argument falls apart.

[WilliamL]

...

don’t get too distracted by the names; “ophaniym” simply means “flying ones” or “winged ones.” “Keruviym” is a little trickier to understand, but by comparing Ezekiel 1 to Ezekiel 10, one can discern that a “keruv” (cherub) is simply an ox form. And, a “seraf" ( or "seraph," plural, "seraphiym") simply means a “burning one,” and is described as a flying serpent!

...

Where do you get your information?

Ezekiel 1:20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither [was their] spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels/ophanim.

Ezek. 10:20 This [is] the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] cherubim.   Strong's H3742

1) cherub, cherubim (pl)

a) an angelic being

1) as guardians of Eden

2) as flanking God's throne

3) as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant

4) as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

[Ezra]

Uh, OK, so then show us the Scriptures that say that the three heavens are "the atmosphere and stratosphere is the first heaven, outer space is the second heaven, and Heaven itself is the third heaven." And  to be fair, I guess you should "stick with the New Testament." Fair enough?

FIRST HEAVEN = "AIR" = ATMOSPHERE + STRATOSPHERE

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? (Mt 6:26)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon (FOWLS)

STRONGS NT 4071: πετεινός

πετεινός, πετεινη, πετεινόν (Attic forπετηνος, from πέτομαι),.flying, winged; in the N. T. found only in neuter plural πετεινάand τά πετεινά, as a substantive, flying or winged animals, birds: Matthew 13:4; Mark 4:4(G L T Tr WH); Luke 12:24; Romans 1:23; James 3:7; τά πετεινά τοῦ οὐρανοῦ (the Sept. forהַשָׁמַיִם עוף; see οὐρανός, 1 b.), the birds of heaven, i. e. flying in the heavens (air), Matthew 6:26; Matthew 8:20; Matthew 13:32; Mark 4:4(Rec), ; Luke 8:5; Luke 9:58; Luke 13:19; Acts 10:12 (here L T Tr WH omit τά); . ((Theognis,Herodotus, others.))

 

Strong's Concordance (AIR)

ouranos: heaven

Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Short Definition: the sky, the heaven
Definition: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

 

  SECOND HEAVEN = OUTER SPACE = REGION OF THE STARS & GALAXIES

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.(Rev 12:4).

The "starry heavens" (outer space) are above the atmosphere and stratosphere, and Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air".  So these "stars" may represent the evil angels dwelling outer space.

THIRD HEAVEN = WHERE GOD'S THRONE RESIDES WITH PARADISE & THE NEW JERUSALEM

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. (2 Cor 12:1-5)

If Paul calls God’s Heaven (where Paradise and the New Jerusalem are located)  the “third heaven”, it follows that there are only three heavens – the atmosphere, outer space, and God’s Heaven. There can be no heaven higher than God's Heaven.

[Ezra]

Isaiah 14:12-15 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Bopeep,

The above refers to the original casting out of Satan from God's Heaven ("how art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer").  Revelation 12 refers to the future casting down of Satan and his angels to the earth by the power of Michael and his angels.  Two different scenarios at vastly different times, and for different reasons. The first casting out was for rebellion and pride. The second casting down is to allow Satan to have full control of the earth for forty two months, along with the Antichrist and the False Prophet (see Rev 13).

 

[missmuffet]

Isaiah 14:12-15 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

Bopeep,

The above refers to the original casting out of Satan from God's Heaven ("how art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer").  Revelation 12 refers to the future casting down of Satan and his angels to the earth by the power of Michael and his angels.  Two different scenarios at vastly different times, and for different reasons. The first casting out was for rebellion and pride. The second casting down is to allow Satan to have full control of the earth for forty two months, along with the Antichrist and the False Prophet (see Rev 13).

 

Oh ok I am sorry that I posted the wrong casting out of heaven.I will delete it.

You must be talking about this cast out of heaven.

The last great angelic battle and Satan’s ultimate expulsion from heaven are described in Revelation 12:7–12. In this passage, John sees a great war between Michael and the angels of God and the dragon (Satan) and his fallen angels or demons that will take place in the end times. Satan, in his great pride and delusion that he can be like God, will lead a final rebellion against God. It will be a cosmic mismatch. Thus, the dragon and his demons will lose the battle and be thrown out of heaven forever.

http://www.gotquestions.org/war-in-heaven.html

Edited November 9, 2015 by bopeep1909

[Sister]

Bopeep

Don't be sorry for posting that scripture.  Satan was cast out of heaven after the resurrection of Christ.  Before that Satan could go back and forth from heaven and earth, but at that certain point when Christ rose from the dead, his access to heaven is no more.   He has been bound here on the earth, the whole time since then, which is why he is so full of wrath.  Just because God is going to allow Satan to go ahead with his end time plan in the last days, does not mean he is suddenly kicked out of heaven, but given the "ok" to carry out end time prophecy after the fullness of the gentiles come in.  God already knows who belongs to him and who doesn't for he is yesterday, today and tomorrow.  Whoever does not belong to God will be joined into that great deception which will come upon the whole world who do not believe. It's already determined.

It's so clear, the devil was cast out of heaven after the man child was caught up to God. After, not before.  Read Rev chapter 12 again, you will see it so clear.

[Retrobyter]

Retro,

Since you have your own unique system of myths and legends, I will not even respond to what you have stated. Believe whatever you wish to believe, and if you wish to limit Heaven to the sky then feel free to do so.  Since you call God's Heaven "a mythical place" it is evident that you don't really believe the Bible (although you quote or misquote from it extensively).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! LOL! ROTFL!

Thank you for that! I haven’t had such a good laugh in AGES! “You don’t really believe the Bible”? WOW! What you REALLY should have said is that because I don’t believe in “God’s heaven” the way that YOU do, I’m not even saved, right?! Such a silly, human vindictiveness!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Gary (gdemoss). 

Retrobyter,  with your interpretation of the heavens being linear timelines rather than spacial do you then equate what Paul said he knew a man caught up to the third heaven the same as John saying he was in the spirit on the Lords day?

Well, technically, the “heavens“ are the SKIES in those linear timelines, but ... yes.