DO YOU BELIEVE ITS OKAY TO EAT PORK, AS A BELIEVER IN GOD ?

[emdie]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

"When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” (Mark 7:17-23, NASB, emphasis mine)

I think Jesus ended the conversation there.

Well you just said it, so I don't need to  

[Riccardo]

I'll first say that your quote of (Jesus declaring all food clean), is in no manuscripts, wether you want to believe it or not. Its not that hard for a bible student  to find out the truth if they want. You may be reading out of an NIV or ESV the NKJ or KJ doesn't say it. I looked into seeing if it was in the manuscripts or not before making decisions. I am surprised that you have heard & not looked into it.

So now we are onto Mark 7:18-23. thats good we are doing it systematically.  

You have kind of jumped the gun a little, so lets go back to the context,which starts at Mt. 7:1 

What issues are involved here? the New Testament plainly declares, "What, know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit....Glorify God in your body"  (1Cor.6:19,20. )   "If any man defiles the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor.3:17)  Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) the scriptures are consistent they don't tell us to carefully consider what we eat & drink in one place, & then it doesn't matter in another.

Mk.7:1 the Pharisees had very strict laws regarding ceremonial cleanliness. Mk 7:1-5 talks about this then in verse 5 according to traditions.

The object in Mk7:5 was not Levitical health laws but the traditions of elders. The pharisees believed that to eat with unwashed hands, you absorbed or took in defilement from the Gentiles. The question here is not what you eat but how you eat. The issue is not a repudiation of health laws which the Lord Himself gave, but a rejection of the idea of ceremonial defilement. In this context " nothing from outside can produce defilement or sin. All sin results in the mind". The Jews rejected the commandments of God , to maintain their traditions of exclusiveness Mk.7:9.) the expression "purging all meats" KJV is a incorrect translation. It should be "purging all foods". the word is broma.

No food is ceremonially unclean. No food carries sin within it. Not from without but from within sin arises. Mk.7:21) Jesus did not consider unclean animals food. Nor did any Jew.

Its always tricky if you don't get the context. God bless

[Riccardo]

I'll first say that your quote of (Jesus declaring all food clean), is in no manuscripts, wether you want to believe it or not. Its not that hard for a bible student  to find out the truth if they want. You may be reading out of an NIV or ESV the NKJ or KJ doesn't say it. I looked into seeing if it was in the manuscripts or not before making decisions. I am surprised that you have heard & not looked into it.

So now we are onto Mark 7:18-23. thats good we are doing it systematically.  

You have kind of jumped the gun a little, so lets go back to the context,which starts at Mt. 7:1 

What issues are involved here? the New Testament plainly declares, "What, know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit....Glorify God in your body"  (1Cor.6:19,20. )   "If any man defiles the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor.3:17)  Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) the scriptures are consistent they don't tell us to carefully consider what we eat & drink in one place, & then it doesn't matter in another.

Mk.7:1 the Pharisees had very strict laws regarding ceremonial cleanliness. Mk 7:1-5 talks about this then in verse 5 according to traditions.

The object in Mk7:5 was not Levitical health laws but the traditions of elders. The pharisees believed that to eat with unwashed hands, you absorbed or took in defilement from the Gentiles. The question here is not what you eat but how you eat. The issue is not a repudiation of health laws which the Lord Himself gave, but a rejection of the idea of ceremonial defilement. In this context " nothing from outside can produce defilement or sin. All sin results in the mind". The Jews rejected the commandments of God , to maintain their traditions of exclusiveness Mk.7:9.) the expression "purging all meats" KJV is a incorrect translation. It should be "purging all foods". the word is broma.

No food is ceremonially unclean. No food carries sin within it. Not from without but from within sin arises. Mk.7:21) Jesus did not consider unclean animals food. Nor did any Jew.

Its always tricky if you don't get the context. God bless

[brakelite]

Show me one verse in scripture that declares unclean animals equated with food. Never in history was an animal described as unclean, categorized as food. The fact that is was not clean, meant it was never to be accepted as food. Your wishful thinking doesn't make the pig fit for food. Its carcinogenic dangerous flesh good only for burning. Anything, such as pigs, shark, eagle, that eats carrion or is a predator, was never classed as food in scripture. Why is it so difficult to believe that the Manufacturer knows best? But nah. After 1000s of years  eating healthy, along comes Christian who searches scripture to find one obscure text to justify his disobedience.

[Guest Robert]

18 hours ago, Riccardo said:

I'll first say that your quote of (Jesus declaring all food clean), is in no manuscripts, wether you want to believe it or not. Its not that hard for a bible student  to find out the truth if they want. You may be reading out of an NIV or ESV the NKJ or KJ doesn't say it. I looked into seeing if it was in the manuscripts or not before making decisions. I am surprised that you have heard & not looked into it.

So now we are onto Mark 7:18-23. thats good we are doing it systematically.  

You have kind of jumped the gun a little, so lets go back to the context,which starts at Mt. 7:1 

What issues are involved here? the New Testament plainly declares, "What, know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit....Glorify God in your body"  (1Cor.6:19,20. )   "If any man defiles the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor.3:17)  Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) the scriptures are consistent they don't tell us to carefully consider what we eat & drink in one place, & then it doesn't matter in another.

Mk.7:1 the Pharisees had very strict laws regarding ceremonial cleanliness. Mk 7:1-5 talks about this then in verse 5 according to traditions.

The object in Mk7:5 was not Levitical health laws but the traditions of elders. The pharisees believed that to eat with unwashed hands, you absorbed or took in defilement from the Gentiles. The question here is not what you eat but how you eat. The issue is not a repudiation of health laws which the Lord Himself gave, but a rejection of the idea of ceremonial defilement. In this context " nothing from outside can produce defilement or sin. All sin results in the mind". The Jews rejected the commandments of God , to maintain their traditions of exclusiveness Mk.7:9.) the expression "purging all meats" KJV is a incorrect translation. It should be "purging all foods". the word is broma.

No food is ceremonially unclean. No food carries sin within it. Not from without but from within sin arises. Mk.7:21) Jesus did not consider unclean animals food. Nor did any Jew.

Its always tricky if you don't get the context. God bless

Actually, Jesus stating that what enters a man does not defile him is the gist of it; the foods listed as unclean would defile a man. And if you wish to talk about taking verses out of context, picking 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and 10:31 are excellent examples of how to do so. 

Let's take a look at both in context:

" All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body." (1 Corinthians 6:12-20, NASB, emphasis mine)

The part you quoted has to do with sexual immorality, not food. Paul mentions in the start of the passage that even though "all things are lawful for him", he would not be mastered by it. Do you think there he was discussing sexual immorality as "lawful"? No, he was talking about food, then segued into the issue of sexual immorality, not food. You left that part out, as verse 18 specifically explains that part before getting to where you quoted.

Now for your second quote, put back into context:

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”; and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.” So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God." (1 Corinthians 3:10-23, NASB, emphasis mine)

Here, Paul is not discussing food or the Sabbath, but discussing instead ones' actions that will be judged before the Lord at the Bema Seat, where each believer will stand to have their rewards determined. On the fact of food, Paul gives almost an entire chapter to the discussion of what one may or may not eat:

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." (Romans 14, NASB, emphasis mine)

Add to this the discussion in Acts chapter 15 about what the council at Jerusalem required believers to do:

"Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. hen they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’ SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, and they sent this letter by them, The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15:1-29, NASB, emphasis mine)

In addition to Jesus' words and Paul's writings, we have the council's decision to not impose upon believers (per their understanding of Scripture) the ordinances of Moses, listing only those things that it made sense to them to have believers follow. Paul would not have written what he did in any effort to countermand the Lord, but per the Lord's guidance and revelation.

All of this is when we do not recognize that the Law was one dispensation and the age of grace is another dispensation; each having its' own method of how god would deal with the Human Race. Jesus set the stage for the Church to emerge, and with the advent of Pentecost, we were no longer under the Law, but Grace; required to follow those things stated by the Lord through revelation via Paul and the other Apostles' writings. Obeying the Law could never save, and this was referenced in the gist of the whole of the Book of Hebrews.

 Jesus did not come to die for us so that we could be bound under a new, ever-tightening set of rules that not even the grandest of "rules-masters" could ever hope to keep. Instead, His death and resurrection provided grace for us so that our hearts could be cleansed and that we could be set free from the stifling bondage of the chains of sin and death. And in that freedom, we could be free to serve Him and live for God.

Lastly: playing "fast and loose" with verses of Scripture  not only upsets me, but it's playing with fire where God is concerned. The Bible is not a "toy" to be used at a whim, nor is it a personal cudgel for "beating people into line" per your displeasure. You are responsible for the way you quote and use Scripture, and when you post tiny snippets that distort the meaning of it, you are misleading people in your "interpretation" of it And that I do take issue with; you may not think much of it, but the damage you can end up doing while trying to appear "holier" than others here can last a lifetime in many cases.

 

Think very carefully on this.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Robert
capitalization

[Guest Robert]

15 hours ago, brakelite said:

Show me one verse in scripture that declares unclean animals equated with food. Never in history was an animal described as unclean, categorized as food. The fact that is was not clean, meant it was never to be accepted as food. Your wishful thinking doesn't make the pig fit for food. Its carcinogenic dangerous flesh good only for burning. Anything, such as pigs, shark, eagle, that eats carrion or is a predator, was never classed as food in scripture. Why is it so difficult to believe that the Manufacturer knows best? But nah. After 1000s of years  eating healthy, along comes Christian who searches scripture to find one obscure text to justify his disobedience.

I just did in my reply to Riccardo, and it was actually quite a bit of Scripture. Your wishful thinning would bind people under things that are not in effect in this Dispensation, and the sheer arrogance of your stance really takes me aback, seeing as Paul already covered this extensively in Romans.

Scripture tells us that no man is to judge us in food or drink; if you're attempting to put yourself in that role, you may find "the Manufacturer" wanting to have a serious discussion with you about that via prayer, and it may be one that you might find more than just a wee bit uncomfortable...

 

Robert out.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Robert

[Riccardo]

If you cannot see the common thread in my quotes about the body being the temple of God & how the scriptures apply them to us (in the context of my letter, you don't want to. You would rather try to take me to task & find  fault.  You now are trying to twist things around & very well I may add & you are also wrong in your opinion of them. 

Its not worth me answering all that you have written & pointing out all you errors as I'm sure it will do no good. Seeing we started with Mk7  & the context  was all about ceremonial hand washing, which it is. My quotes were from different sections just to point out the consistency of the bible on that point but because I mentioned you have taken Mark 7 out of context that is all you could see.

1 Cor 10:31. Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whats ever you do, do all to the Glory of God. So that can only apply in one context you are saying, I see it as universal. My other quotes on the subject are also universal.

Then you bring up Romans 14:14  Brother get yourself a concordance. Just like you were not savy to jesus not declaring all foods clean I'm Mark 7, which you heard about & not checked up on. It makes a difference when you find the truth.  Rom. 14:14 I know & am fully convinced by the lord Jesus that there is nothing common of itself; but to him who considers anything common, to him it is common. The word is Koinos= common.    Now the subject has not changed since the start of Rom 14:1 

I'm not going to waist my time, you have a lot of knowledge but no understanding.

. 

 

 

[coheir]

Im having bacon and eggs this morning.mmmmm

[Remnantrob]

11 hours ago, Riccardo said:

If you cannot see the common thread in my quotes about the body being the temple of God & how the scriptures apply them to us (in the context of my letter, you don't want to. You would rather try to take me to task & find  fault.  You now are trying to twist things around & very well I may add & you are also wrong in your opinion of them. 

Its not worth me answering all that you have written & pointing out all you errors as I'm sure it will do no good. Seeing we started with Mk7  & the context  was all about ceremonial hand washing, which it is. My quotes were from different sections just to point out the consistency of the bible on that point but because I mentioned you have taken Mark 7 out of context that is all you could see.

1 Cor 10:31. Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whats ever you do, do all to the Glory of God. So that can only apply in one context you are saying, I see it as universal. My other quotes on the subject are also universal.

Then you bring up Romans 14:14  Brother get yourself a concordance. Just like you were not savy to jesus not declaring all foods clean I'm Mark 7, which you heard about & not checked up on. It makes a difference when you find the truth.  Rom. 14:14 I know & am fully convinced by the lord Jesus that there is nothing common of itself; but to him who considers anything common, to him it is common. The word is Koinos= common.    Now the subject has not changed since the start of Rom 14:1 

I'm not going to waist my time, you have a lot of knowledge but no understanding.

. 

 

 

Interesting thing about the literal temple on earth....only clean meats were allowed in the sanctuary.  No alcohol was allowed inside the sanctuary.  No strange fire was allowed in the sanctuary.  If our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit....it just seems interesting.

[Guest shiloh357]

The dietary laws were only given to Israel.  They were not given to world as a command and were never certainly never given to the Church as a command.   If someone wants to abstain from pork, shellfish and follow the dietary laws in Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 it is their choice and  a matter of conscience.   No one really cares what you eat, so eat what you want and don't worry about trying to tell others what they can and cannot eat.