The Sovereignty of God

[Guest shiloh357]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

It is interplay between Jesus' humanity and His divinity.   Jesus gave up, temporarily, some divine prerogatives when He took on human flesh.   He voluntarily took on some human limitations and Jesus said that He only did what the Father told Him to do.   Jesus' in His humanity, didn't know the time of his second coming, but that was only a temporary limitation that he shed when He was raised from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

[gdemoss]

God is responsible for sin and the fall of man and as such God has taken care of his responsibility by sending his only begotton son into the world to pay the price for sin and redeem creation.  Before God created anything he knew what would happen and he did it anyway.  That makes him responsible for that which he allows when God is in fact supreme authority and power over all.  There is nothing that can happen period without his permission.  That said, we cannot even begin to question Gods righteousness in any of these decisions for we could not amswer him one of a thousand questions he would ask us if we did.  

The truth of the matter is that God must predestine all things by either choosing to interfere or not to interfere for he knows all beforehand and has the power to decide.  We may not like that but it is true.  God IS good.

That is completely false and puts God in contraction with Himself.   God cannot predetermine sin but claim to also hate sin.   He cannot predetermine a person to sin, but then punish them for doing the very thing he predetermined that they would do it.   In legal terms, we call that "entrapment."    That is not how the Bible represents God.

God either knew they would sin or he did not.  God either had the power to prevent them or he did not.

If God knew AND could prevent THEN he is responsible for allowing said events to happen.

God cannot be tempted to sin neither tempt he any man.  The bible outright declares such.

God can and does allow that which he hates for his purposes.  God allowed sin that we might know his power.  God will put away all sin from creation.  Just as Pharoah had a purpose from God so does sin.  

Paul already covered the arguments against those who would take the position of questioning why has God made some such in Romans.

[Guest shiloh357]

God is responsible for sin and the fall of man and as such God has taken care of his responsibility by sending his only begotton son into the world to pay the price for sin and redeem creation.  Before God created anything he knew what would happen and he did it anyway.  That makes him responsible for that which he allows when God is in fact supreme authority and power over all.  There is nothing that can happen period without his permission.  That said, we cannot even begin to question Gods righteousness in any of these decisions for we could not amswer him one of a thousand questions he would ask us if we did.  

The truth of the matter is that God must predestine all things by either choosing to interfere or not to interfere for he knows all beforehand and has the power to decide.  We may not like that but it is true.  God IS good.

That is completely false and puts God in contraction with Himself.   God cannot predetermine sin but claim to also hate sin.   He cannot predetermine a person to sin, but then punish them for doing the very thing he predetermined that they would do it.   In legal terms, we call that "entrapment."    That is not how the Bible represents God.

God either knew they would sin or he did not.  God either had the power to prevent them or he did not.

If God knew AND could prevent THEN he is responsible for allowing said events to happen.

God cannot be tempted to sin neither tempt he any man.  The bible outright declares such.

God can and does allow that which he hates for his purposes.  God allowed sin that we might know his power.  God will put away all sin from creation.  Just as Pharoah had a purpose from God so does sin.  

Paul already covered the arguments against those who would take the position of questioning why has God made some such in Romans.

Your position is  not biblical.   Yes God knew man would sin and God had the power to stop it.    But that does not make God responsible for sin, because God did not predetermine man to sin.    It is one thing to know a particular future event will happen, but it is another thing to make that particular event actually come to pass.

The only way God would be responsible for sin is if God predetermined it to happen and left man no choice in the matter and thus forced man to sin.

God allows people to reject Jesus, but that  does make God responsible for their rejection.  God gives man a choice, but man faces the consequences for his choice.  Man and man alone, is responsible for his own choice to reject Jesus. 

[ghtan]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

It is interplay between Jesus' humanity and His divinity.   Jesus gave up, temporarily, some divine prerogatives when He took on human flesh.   He voluntarily took on some human limitations and Jesus said that He only did what the Father told Him to do.   Jesus' in His humanity, didn't know the time of his second coming, but that was only a temporary limitation that he shed when He was raised from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

For that argument to work, you need to explain how taking on human flesh limited Jesus' knowledge of the date of his return but left his knowledge of the rest of the future still intact. If knowing the future were part of being God, can that knowledge be compartmentalised as you propose?

[Ezra]

 

God either knew they would sin or he did not.  God either had the power to prevent them or he did not.

Foreknowledge of sinful deeds does not mean that God will prevent them, and the reason for that is He has chosen to give men and angels free will. God knew before He created Lucifer and Adam that both would sin. However He ALLOWED sin to enter into this world for His own perfect reasons, one of them being so that men could be redeemed and perfected in Christ, and God's grace would be praised for all eternity.

Sovereignty does not mean micromanaging sinners and their sins. God will NEVER cause a man to sin, but He will allow it, and He also lays down the consequences (physical and eternal death).  That is precisely what He told Adam: "...in the day that thou eatest thereof THOU SHALT SURELY DIE" (Gen 2:17).  Therefore the Gospel says "THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH..." (Rom 6:23).

[Ezra]

For that argument to work, you need to explain how taking on human flesh limited Jesus' knowledge of the date of his return but left his knowledge of the rest of the future still intact. If knowing the future were part of being God, can that knowledge be compartmentalised as you propose?

There is a point beyond which men should not try to delve further into the Mystery of God and the Mystery of Godliness. The truth of the matter is that Jesus of Nazareth -- the God-Man -- was omniscient, and only laid aside His glory when He took human form. We are not told why there was one exception to Christ's omniscience, but THAT IS AN EXCEPTION. And if we are not told something, we should not try to investigate it further. We take it on faith that Christ was FULLY GOD at every moment that He was also fully Man (Heb 1:8,9).

[Guest shiloh357]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

It is interplay between Jesus' humanity and His divinity.   Jesus gave up, temporarily, some divine prerogatives when He took on human flesh.   He voluntarily took on some human limitations and Jesus said that He only did what the Father told Him to do.   Jesus' in His humanity, didn't know the time of his second coming, but that was only a temporary limitation that he shed when He was raised from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

For that argument to work, you need to explain how taking on human flesh limited Jesus' knowledge of the date of his return but left his knowledge of the rest of the future still intact. If knowing the future were part of being God, can that knowledge be compartmentalised as you propose?

Your question assumes that he knew everything else about the future.   He knew what the Father told Him.   Jesus was fully human and he took on certain human limitations.   It really isn't that hard to understand.   Jesus was both fully human and fully God and he held both his humanity and deity in perfection without any mixture of either one.

[Ezra]

Predestination of God is a timing issue not a heaven or hell issue. Some of us are called now by God in this present time, that is God's predestination; however only if we overcome to the end, whether we MAKE it into His Kingdom is UP TO US, that is our predestination not Gods predestination, the choice is ours.

 

While no one is predestined for Heaven or for Hell, by the same token predestination is not controlled by what we do (or not do). Those who are justified by God's grace (having believed on the Lord Jesus Christ) are also predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29).  That is the biblical meaning of predestination.

[ghtan]

God does not predetermine sin and evil acts. He has given men free will (or the ability to make moral choices) but God is NOT responsible for each one's evil deeds.  Christ said that they come from within -- from the heart of man (Mk 7:20-23). As to Divine foreknowledge, it is a part of God's omniscience.  He knows the end from the beginning (not based on importance or unimportance) based on who God is -- the all-knowing and all-seeing God (Isaiah 46:9,10).

I take it you are saying that knowing the future is part of being God, like God is good or God is love or God is eternal, etc.. How then did Jesus not know the time of his return (Mk 13:32)? If knowing the future is part of being God and Jesus is God, then shouldn't he have known the time of his return?

There is only one time in Scripture when Christ says that there is something not known to Him, but to the Father only. God the Father is “the Head” of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), and Jesus was the Servant of Jehovah while on earth (Isa 52:13-15). Thus Matthew Henry’s comment on this verse is very helpful, although he quotes Dr. Lightfoot:

Dr. Lightfoot explains it thus; Christ calls himself the Son, as Messiah. Now the Messiah, as such, was the father’s servant (Isa. 42:1 ), sent and deputed by him, and as such a one he refers himself often to his Father’s will and command, and owns he did nothing of himself (Jn. 5:19 ); in like manner he might be said to know nothing of himself.

At the same time we should not forget what the Gospel of John says regarding Christ’s foreknowledge and omniscience (Jn 13:19), where the Greek says “ye may believe that I AM [he added]” to prove His Deity: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]. Christ’s omniscience is also evident in that He prophesied that (a) all His apostles would forsake Him, (b) that following  His resurrection He would meet them in Galilee, and also (c) that Peter would betray him before the cock had crowed twice (Mk 14:27-30). Indeed, Christ knew precisely each and every thing in His ministry before it occurred, so that prophecy upon prophecy was fulfilled (Mt 16:21).

One time is one time too many. Would we believe that there could be one time that God is not good or one time that he is not loving or one time that he is not eternal? That Jesus knew many things about the future is without doubt. But Mk 13:32 indicates there were some things Jesus did not know about the future. Yet he was fully God. I think the only way to reconcile this is that knowing the future is not part of BEING God but it is what he is able to DO. And God can choose what he wants to do and what he does not want to do.

It is interplay between Jesus' humanity and His divinity.   Jesus gave up, temporarily, some divine prerogatives when He took on human flesh.   He voluntarily took on some human limitations and Jesus said that He only did what the Father told Him to do.   Jesus' in His humanity, didn't know the time of his second coming, but that was only a temporary limitation that he shed when He was raised from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

For that argument to work, you need to explain how taking on human flesh limited Jesus' knowledge of the date of his return but left his knowledge of the rest of the future still intact. If knowing the future were part of being God, can that knowledge be compartmentalised as you propose?

Your question assumes that he knew everything else about the future.   He knew what the Father told Him.   Jesus was fully human and he took on certain human limitations.   It really isn't that hard to understand.   Jesus was both fully human and fully God and he held both his humanity and deity in perfection without any mixture of either one.

If Jesus knew only what the Father told him, that would mean he knew less than what the Father knew. How then could he be FULLY God? The less Jesus knew, the wider that disparity. I'm curious: What other divine attribute do you think Jesus lacked when he was on earth?  

[ghtan]

 

For that argument to work, you need to explain how taking on human flesh limited Jesus' knowledge of the date of his return but left his knowledge of the rest of the future still intact. If knowing the future were part of being God, can that knowledge be compartmentalised as you propose?

There is a point beyond which men should not try to delve further into the Mystery of God and the Mystery of Godliness. The truth of the matter is that Jesus of Nazareth -- the God-Man -- was omniscient, and only laid aside His glory when He took human form. We are not told why there was one exception to Christ's omniscience, but THAT IS AN EXCEPTION. And if we are not told something, we should not try to investigate it further. We take it on faith that Christ was FULLY GOD at every moment that He was also fully Man (Heb 1:8,9).

On the contrary, I think we are told and hence it is worth investigating. But to each his own.