OldSchool2 Posted December 16, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Share Posted December 16, 2015 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Wrong on both counts. Judaism cannot play a role in our salvation because Judaism didn't exist when Paul penned Romans 11. Judaism never played a role in our salvation because Judaism is a post biblical religion that Paul never knew. Furthermore, Romans 11 doesn't claim that the Jewish nation played a role in our salvation..... Why must everyone be wrong for your theology to be right? "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew...." So "his people" can't collectively refer to Israel, the Jewish nation? Ask yourself why Jesus didn't pick a single theologian for his original 12 apostles. After all, there were many scribes and Pharisees who could split hairs as easily as they could tithe dill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted December 16, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Share Posted December 16, 2015 On 12/15/2015 at 1:33 AM, ayin jade said: I am not in any way endorsing what the vatican said. But .... 9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from thedead, you shall be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame." The Apostles did this. We do this today. Some Messianic Jews do this today. The title is what seems to be the issue here. Should we call Jewish believers Christians? Wasn't Christ Himself Jewish in His fleshly genealogy? So should we not all be Jewish, as we are adopted by Him??? I think the earliest Christians were actually called followers of The Way, as in The Way, The Truth, the Life. 'Christian' may have started out being a derogatory term, which is why Messianic Jews today may not want to be known by that label. Wherever we came from, God so loved the World, not Israel only, not all except Israel, that He sent His only Son that none should perish but ALL have eternal life. Peaces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 1 hour ago, Qnts2 said: I gave the proper interpretation of the quote from the Talmud. The last section you left off, makes it very clear what is being said. I do not believe the oral law was given at Mt. Sinai. I believe much of the Mishna is actually the decisions of the courts of law/judges, which were appointed to render decisions according to the practice of the law. It was the Torah which mandated the appointment of judges. There is no spin or attempt to validate Judaism. I just gave the correct interpretation of that Rabbis opinion, and also gave the order of authority of the various writings as Judaism views them. The bottom line in all of this is that the acid test for a false religion is whether or not it accepts Jesus. Judaism rejects Jesus, and is thus a false religion. If you are wrong about Jesus, it doesn't matter what else you are right about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 2 hours ago, OldSchool2 said: Why must everyone be wrong for your theology to be right? "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew...." So "his people" can't collectively refer to Israel, the Jewish nation? Ask yourself why Jesus didn't pick a single theologian for his original 12 apostles. After all, there were many scribes and Pharisees who could split hairs as easily as they could tithe dill. You don't have to be wrong in order for me to be right. You keep trying to defend an erroneous statement made by the Vatican and you are trying to pencil it into the Bible. The Jews, as a people, have nothing to do with our salvation. They play no role in it. God used individual Jews for His purpose but that doesn't mean we can claim that the Jewish nation played any role in our salvation. You erroneously try to equate a handful of Jewish believers with the entire nation. Romans 11 is an appeal to the Gentile Church to evangelize the Jews. It is not making the case that Jews play a role in our salvation. It is making the opposite case. He is making the case that the Church should not presume that the partial blindness that God put on the nation was in any way a rejection of them, and the Church needs to take the Gospel to them, for that reason. The Vatican is arguing that there is no need for the Church to engage in conversion/missionary efforts where the Jews are concerned, and that only demonstrates how unbiblical the Vatican's theology is. Nothing could more hateful and anti-Semitic than to claim that there is no need for Jews to convert to the Christian faith. To keep the Jews from their Messiah and Savior is the antithesis of the Great Commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted December 16, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2015 12 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: The bottom line in all of this is that the acid test for a false religion is whether or not it accepts Jesus. Judaism rejects Jesus, and is thus a false religion. If you are wrong about Jesus, it doesn't matter what else you are right about. If we were before the time when Jesus walked the earth, the Judaism was the only religion entirely based on scripture. To say the Judaism is a false religion today would mean that OT no longer is the truth but is now false. The OT never promised eternal salvation by following the Mosaic law and covenant. However, the OT is the words of God and God does not create something false. So, in conclusion, Judaism is not a false religion. Individuals can and did and do break the OT. Individuals and the nation of Israel can not earn eternal salvation thru the Mosaic law. The Jewish people need Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation. But, the Mosaic covenant did not become a false covenant when Jesus came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 2 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: If we were before the time when Jesus walked the earth, the Judaism was the only religion entirely based on scripture. To say the Judaism is a false religion today would mean that OT no longer is the truth but is now false. . No, that is false. Judaism isn't based on the OT, and no matter of repeating that over and over will make any difference. Judaism is based on the Rabbis and their teachings and their poor interpretations of the OT. Judaism is post biblical so when I say that Judaism is a false religion, I am not claiming that the OT is false. 4 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: The OT never promised eternal salvation by following the Mosaic law and covenant. However, the OT is the words of God and God does not create something false. So, in conclusion, Judaism is not a false religion. Individuals can and did and do break the OT. Individuals and the nation of Israel can not earn eternal salvation thru the Mosaic law. The Jewish people need Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation. But, the Mosaic covenant did not become a false covenant when Jesus came. The OT pointed to Jesus as the Savior and Messiah of the world. Judaism does not. The OT, if followed, would lead someone to Jesus. I can witness to a person, a Jewish person about Jesus and never use ONE NT passage to do it. I cannot use modern Judaism or its theology to accomplish that. Judaism will lead no one to Jesus, only away from Jesus. You cannot equate modern Judaism with the OT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 1 hour ago, *Zion* said: The Apostles did this. We do this today. Some Messianic Jews do this today. The title is what seems to be the issue here. Peaces No, the issue here is whether or not Christians need to evangelize unbelieving Jews. The Vatican says that there is no need for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Zion* Posted December 16, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 154 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,245 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,397 Days Won: 9 Joined: 12/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/11/1984 Share Posted December 16, 2015 There is a need, but whether to call Jewish people Messianic or Christian is what I was adressing with Ayin Jade. Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 16, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,265 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,993 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2015 i have never seen where the first covenant could lead to eternal life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 16, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,265 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,993 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2015 27 minutes ago, inchrist said: 35. Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. do you see how confusing this sentence is... the fact that there can not be different paths to salvation has nothing to do with God never revoking the covenant with his people.... I think the question is can you be members of both covenants at the same time. If you are looking at modern Judaism, I would agree with Shiloh and say no, but I do think that they can keep thier Jewish heritage and Be a Christian..... but they must do the same things as a Gentile to be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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