FINDING COMMON GROUND IN DANIEL

[Serving]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Nebuchadnezzar's dream speaks of a succession of four kingdoms beginning with Babylon.  Babylon was already a kingdom at that time.

• As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place.  Daniel 2:29

So, it's not necessary that the entire prophecy be set in the future, only that it speaks about the future.  It begins with the kingdom that "is" and addresses what is future.  I see the same being true of the four beasts in Daniel 7 and that they speak of the same four kingdoms, albeit from different perspectives.

I think that before we move on from taking a head count we need to figure out why Neb's dream only mentions four kingdoms yet we attribute five to it.

Okay Daze, that's fair, not a problem ..

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How are the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay seen as one kingdom?  Rome hasn't been a kingdom for centuries.  From a natural perspective, the fourth kingdom of Rome is over.

Yes the Roman empire herself certainly did end, I agree, so your question is regarding how can the feet be seen as one kingdom (connected to the Roman that is) .. first, let's see what Daniel says about the feet ..

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

What kingdom shall be divided? There is no definite article there, he pronounces that kingdom as though he had already mentioned it !!

 

Perhaps lets look at Daniels (descriptive) METHOD he used in his definitions regarding each of the statues appendixes (empires) for a clue ..

Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

No question there, Babylon is described as a kingdom, the head of Gold in fact .. the 1st kingdom of the statues appendixes.

Daniel 2:39(a) And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

Media Persia came next, and Daniel made sure to point out it was another kingdom here too .. then he continues

Daniel 2:39(b) and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Daniel is using the same METHOD of introduction so far for each appendix up to now .. the 3rd kingdom / appendix .. will he break his METHOD for the next kingdom's introduction?

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

No. The next appendix is likewise introduced as another definite article : (another) fourth kingdom ..

BUT .. please take pause for a moment here .. look again at what Daniel just said .. let's look a little closer at what Daniel just told us about this fourth kingdom :

 

He said :

Daniel 2:40(a) And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron:

It will be very strong

Daniel 2:40(b) forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things:

because iron is strong just like that fourth kingdom will be, it can break other 'weaker kingdoms' .. like other kingdoms who likewise could be made of gold or silver or brass etc.

Daniel 2:40(c) and as iron that breaketh all these,

and just as that fourth kingdom which broke all these (those, that is, those that he *Rome* subdued during his time)

Daniel 2:40(c) shall it break in pieces and bruise.

will *he* (the iron) likewise break into pieces and bruise.

 

So that Iron kingdom has to first break into pieces and bruise (wound) .. meaning .. Daniel just explained the fall of Rome.

Once more :

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

So the iron is breaking up there.

 

Now consider what happens next .. look how the METHOD Daniel consistently used in introducing the statues kingdoms all of a sudden CHANGES from the 'defined' ('another kingdom' or 2nd, 3rd, 4th kingdom etc ) to the 'undefined' .. 'THE kingdom' ..

Daniel 2:41(a)  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron,

See?

Daniel did not introduce this appendix as another kingdom (2nd, 3rd, 4th) just like all the others, but instead goes straight into the appendixes attributes (feet & toes of iron & clay) as though he were continuing with the same kingdom he was previously mentioning !!

Before finally saying

Daniel 2:41(b) the kingdom shall be divided;

But again, that is not defined .. not a definite article .. because it begs What kingdom shall be divided?

He did not introduce this appendix as another kingdom, (2nd, 3rd, 4th), he just described that appendix John saw next as merely 'the kingdom'.

What sort of introduction is 'the kingdom' which causes one to immediately ask, 'what kingdom' ? .. compared to the normal another kingdom METHOD which is 'defining' .. of which 'defining' Daniel abruptly  broke away from for the feet and toes explanation ? .. which suggests 'the kingdom' (not being a definite article) is actually a continuation of a previous narrative .. and the previous narrative concerned Rome.

Doesn't it seem likely by Daniels undefined narrative for the feet period, is actually the period of time where the Roman empire has been divided ("broken in pieces") and no more as an empire ("bruised") as Daniel described ?, the fall of Rome ?

With those pieces (nations) which made up that empire still being in the world (as they are) and still being concentrated on even though she is divided (in pieces / reverted back to individual nation states), and bruised (no more a united group, empire ceased) like she still is today?

And doesn't that beast in rev 13 get healed from it's bruise ? Coincidence ?

because the Roman Empire did divide as you know. First her western leg divided from the body by collapsing into pieces, followed by her eastern leg division and fragmentation into *pieces* (back to individual nation states) in the 1400's, officially ending the union known as the Roman Empire.

I believe that God has not taken our attention off of that broken kingdom for a reason .. because it is them we are to be watching ..

And the 10 toes being allegory for 10 kings out of those broken pieces who unite and join together in a modern version of that old Roman empire who, has all this time, been broken (in pieces).

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

12 minutes ago, Serving said:

Doesn't it seem likely by Daniels undefined narrative for the feet period is actually the period of time where the Roman empire has been divided ("broken in pieces") and no more as an empire ("bruised"), yet those pieces (nations) which made up that empire are still in the world and still being focussed on even though she is divided (in pieces / reverted back to individual nation states), and bruised (no more a united group, empire ceased)

And the Roman Empire did divide as you know. First her western leg divided from the body and collapsed into pieces, followed by her eastern leg division and fragmentation into *pieces* (back to individual nation states) in the 1400's officially ending the union known as the Roman Empire.

I believe that God has not taken our attention off of that broken kingdom for a reason .. because it is them we are to be watching ..

And the 10 toes being allegory for 10 kings out of those broken pieces who unite and join together in a modern version of that old Roman empire.

Are you saying that the feet of iron and clay speak of Rome being broken circa 1400 and the feet of iron and clay is fulfilled?  Remember that the stone strikes the statue on the feet of iron and clay.  I still don't understand how, from a purely natural perspective, Daniel only mentions four kingdoms yet we count them as five.

[Serving]

1 minute ago, Last Daze said:

Are you saying that the feet of iron and clay speak of Rome being broken circa 1400 and the feet of iron and clay is fulfilled?  Remember that the stone strikes the statue on the feet of iron and clay.  I still don't understand how, from a purely natural perspective, Daniel only mentions four kingdoms yet we count them as five.

No I'm saying the iron itself finally broke in the 1400's and that today we are of the broken pieces period, the feet ..

And the 10 kings will be those toes which signify the 10 horns rising.

[Serving]

I'm seeing this as the fall of Rome .. the legs

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Which bruising (breaking to pieces), is a wound that finally gets healed here :

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

So you're saying, rather than a country, it's the loose federation of terrorist groups like Al Queda and Hamas?

Hi Morning Glory,

I must say I give you credit for `hanging in there,` & speaking of contemporary nations & Federations. Many people have got stuck in the past & thus are not aware of what is forming today. So to your questions. The Federation that is forming is, as I believe -

The Islamic Federation -

(7) Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, (UAE) Oman & Yeman (this year.) This group is called the Gulf Cooperation Council.

(3) Iraq, Syria & Jordan. (ancient Assyria - bringing forth the King of the North) This group is most volatile, as we can well see, with Syria in a civil war, ISIS across the area, Kurds at the north, & Shiites controlling some of Iraq. When a clever mediator steps in & shows that fighting is not the best way to achieve power, but through `peaceful` means, then this area will `fall` under his control. This will be the beginning of his rise to power & the other (7) will eventually come under his control, (10).

The next few years will reveal if this is true or not. I was taught this in the `60`s & `70`s, way before Islam was taken seriously by the world. So I have watched over the years what I had been taught coming to pass. Now the 3 areas, Iraq, Syria & Jordan have come into world focus & it wont be long before we see how events turn out.

 

blessings, Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

Now have you ever considered that the `heads` are shared power by leaders. Look at the 3rd beast, the Leopard, one beast, one kingdom, but it had 4 heads. This denotes, I believe shared power of leadership. Then when we see that composite beast of Revelation with 7 heads we can think, well they can be 7 leaders who have had a turn at leadership of the Global Government, in their time. They are consecutive - `5 fallen, one is....` etc.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Serving said:

I'm seeing this as the fall of Rome .. the legs

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Which bruising (breaking to pieces), is a wound that finally gets healed here :

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 

That deadly wound was healed in 800 AD when the pope crowned Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor. Romanism never died, it just changed form over the centuries to suit changing circumstances. Romanism has always been closely tied since the 4th century to the Great Whore, the Catholic Church, and her harlot Protestant daughters --  being the illicit union of church and state. Think 501(c)(3).

I agree with the gist of your posts so far.  I disagree that the breaking was the 4th kingdom of itself, rather, it was of all other kingdoms.

Dan. 7:7 23 ‘The fourth beast shall devour the whole earth, trample it and break it in pieces.

Romanism -- law and culture -- rules the whole world still today via the Euro-centralized banking cartel, which controls the militaries of Europe and America.

[unworthydude]

I currently have three theories on Daniel. I know none one believes this, but hey, I read it for myself, between God and I. I'll try and be as succinct as possible.

My Theory 1:

The visions given to Daniel expand in detail of the same culminating events. The main thing to harmonize is the fourth kingdom and the antichrist details. Each vision chapter unfolds more and more details of the precious vision. The 4 kingdoms are only those kingdoms that lead to the antichrist final kingdom.  Babylon=Gold=Lion > Medo-Persia=Silver= Bear and Ram > Greece=Bronze=Leopard and Goat > Antichrist kingdom=Iron. There is no Rome depicted. The goat attacks the ram= Greece attacks Persia. Greece splits into four kingdoms. Out of one these kingdoms comes the final future antichrist 4th kingdom.

My Theory 2.

The visions of Daniel are all future kingdoms in the same geographic territories. Babylon represents future Iraq or Israel > Medo-Persia represents Iran or Iraq/both >Greece represents Turkey and the 4th kingdom is all of them combined under the antichrist. Rev 13:2.

My Theory 3.

Based on Zachariah 1:21 and Hosea 13:7-8, we see the Lord sends four nations to judge Israel. If we try to harmonize these four historic king nations with Daniel it paints a different picture. The kings who have judged Israel in the past are not consecutive nations who follow succession. We have Babylon=Nebuchadnezzar > Greece= Antiochus IV Epiphanes > Rome=Titus > antichrist=?  Cyrus the Persian was kind to Israel and sent them back to build to Jerusalem to build their temple.

As far as the 7 heads and 10 horns, I think they could be as Serving has described.. 7 historic nations and one of them is the final beast who has 10 horns. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon. 4. Persia 5. Greece. 6. Rome. 7.? 8.?  It could also be that these 7 nations are all futuristic nations comprising a set that is not part of the antichrist kingdom. I'm not too sure. Love the discussion though!

Edited January 10, 2016 by unworthydude

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, Serving said:

No I'm saying the iron itself finally broke in the 1400's and that today we are of the broken pieces period, the feet ..

And the 10 kings will be those toes which signify the 10 horns rising.

Do you see the U.N. as the feet of iron and clay, the kingdom out of which the ten horns rise?

• As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.  Daniel 7:24

Or do they rise from within the constraints of the geography of a former kingdom, or something else?

[MorningGlory]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

That deadly wound was healed in 800 AD when the pope crowned Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor. Romanism never died, it just changed form over the centuries to suit changing circumstances. Romanism has always been closely tied since the 4th century to the Great Whore, the Catholic Church, and her harlot Protestant daughters --  being the illicit union of church and state. Think 501(c)(3).

I agree with the gist of your posts so far.  I disagree that the breaking was the 4th kingdom of itself, rather, it was of all other kingdoms.

Dan. 7:7 23 ‘The fourth beast shall devour the whole earth, trample it and break it in pieces.

Romanism -- law and culture -- rules the whole world still today via the Euro-centralized banking cartel, which controls the militaries of Europe and America.

This sounds more suited for the Conspiracy section........there's no way the Scripture you posted relates to your comments.