SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.02 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, Butero said: I really don't want to go down the Bible translation road. I think you have an interesting topic, and it would be a shame to move away from it with a distraction like that. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.02 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 1 hour ago, ghtan said: Disappointing that you quote an article wholesale in answer to my question. Do you actually understand your view? If yes, why not express it in your own words? You wanted scriptures: I gave you scriptures. What's your beef now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 I don't know about God operating outside of time, but this much I do know. If you speak to an evolutionist, they will claim that we got here as a result of a big bang, but they cannot tell you how the matter magically appeared that caused the big bang. There is no explanation for it's origin. Those who claim we were created by extraterrestrial beings cannot tell you who created the ETs. There is no logical answer. When it comes to how God came to be, we say he has always been, but that doesn't make logical sense when you look at it from the lenses of time because you could keep tracing back over the years, and there must be a beginning. That is because we live under this system where time is a reality, so there is only one logical answer, in my opinion, to explain how anything got here. That is that time is a creation, and God has always existed because time doesn't exist with him. He created time for our benefit. He had no need for time. You can say that is living outside of time, or you can say as one person did that God lives in and out of time because he interacts with us. I would tend to think the latter makes the most sense, because he does have plans for the human race and those plans are based on a calendar. As such, I can see where both views have merit. God in his natural state is outside of time, but because of his creation, he is active in orchestrating a plan that involves time, and that you can see played out in the book of Revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/13/2016 at 4:28 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said: I believe in God's sovereignty ... that He is outside of the dimension of time that He created. I also believe in the power of prayer, especially as Jesus taught it ... that is, prayer is not to be a meaningless repetition of words or phrases, but a heartfelt conversation with our Father in Heaven. So I'm throwing this question out to get input from mature Christians as to how they see prayer. Let's say I pray for someone. God is outside of time. So God knows that I will pray for someone. Does God set in motion the answer to my prayer ahead of time because He is sovereign, or does God wait until the actual prayer takes place before answering? Or does it even matter? As a former Calvinist, this question was much easier to answer. First of all I am glad to see you are free of Calvinism. I am so weary of traditions of man clubs like it. And the longer it is held up to the light of scripture the more cankerous it appears. In God's sovereignty he has granted the limited sovereignty of mankind and angels. And being outside of time and space does not mean God is unaffected or that there is no room for alterations of (our) situations which he has allowed for so that our (limited) sovereignty is genuine. No one is hijacked into faith, for example. That it must be a choice. That being said, God is still on the throne, and prayer changes things. I love that mantra from the Watchman on the Wall broadcast of the Southwest Radio Church. Notice, things are changed. God is not. And often times all that is changed is we who pray to conform us to God's way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 Sovereignty and being outside of time and space has tweaked an aside for me. Jesus is the mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). Since he is both God and man he has a hand in both realities: Job 9:33 (AV) 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Referring to the time before God the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. So now we have this daysman / mediator who is kinsman to both mankind and to God. Philippians 2:6 in the Greek states that Jesus remained in his deity (never ceased to be God) "morphe theos huparchon" when he became a man. I want that to be perfectly clear here. But it also says he emptied himself of something to become human. Some argue it was his position in glory being worshiped continually by men and angels... but the context of the passage is about his "form" his being.... In Matthew 24 we read that Jesus does not know the day of his return. Matthew 24:36 (AV) 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. And when asked when the kingdom of Israel would be restored, Jesus said Acts 1:7 (AV) 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. That's twice Jesus did not know what we would think an omniscient individual would know. And each time he said the Father alone knows. Later we read that even the Holy Spirit must search the mind of God (the Father): 1 Corinthians 2:10–11 (AV) 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now I am merely posing this as a question of possibility not as a dogmatic belief that I have... Could it be possible that the emptying of (Jesus) himself in Philippians 2 refers to a state or level of omniscience that would make him able to deal directly with temporal beings like us? And that the Holy Spirit did so as well to be the other Comforter? I imagine eternity past before anything besides God existed this perfect communion of the three individuals of God. Each knowing the thoughts of the other instantaneously. All on such a higher plain than temporal mental / physical processors like us. And for the mission of men and angels the Word and the Spirit had to take on the lower abilities while the Father remained in the omniscient state (and thus is the authority). I realize this is think-tank material. But your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted January 19, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2016 If God did live outside time, shouldn't he be able to change the past? But we do not read of God doing that in the bible, as far as I remember. He raises the dead, but he never goes back in time to change things so that the person did not actually die. Neither do we read of any man of faith in the bible asking God to change the past. Maybe it is because they knew God could not change the past, that the past is past and cannot be changed. But that would imply God lives IN time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted January 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2016 I never cease to be amazed by man's arrogance in limiting an Almighty God who was from everlasting to everlasting or the authority of the Holy Spirit who is Almighty God himself. Just because of our finite minds we attempt to restrict God into our own limited spheres. Just because God does not do something does not mean He cannot but more accurately will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.02 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 9 hours ago, ghtan said: If God did live outside time, shouldn't he be able to change the past? But we do not read of God doing that in the bible, as far as I remember. He raises the dead, but he never goes back in time to change things so that the person did not actually die. Neither do we read of any man of faith in the bible asking God to change the past. Maybe it is because they knew God could not change the past, that the past is past and cannot be changed. But that would imply God lives IN time. God moves in and out of time as He chooses, for His purposes. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Is it your lack of scientific understanding or your lack of biblical discernment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,056 Content Per Day: 15.02 Reputation: 5,191 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 21 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said: I never cease to be amazed by man's arrogance in limiting an Almighty God who was from everlasting to everlasting or the authority of the Holy Spirit who is Almighty God himself. Just because of our finite minds we attempt to restrict God into our own limited spheres. Just because God does not do something does not mean He cannot but more accurately will not. Exactly. His ways are above our ways. Who are we, His creation, to question the Creator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted January 19, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2016 3 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said: I never cease to be amazed by man's arrogance in limiting an Almighty God who was from everlasting to everlasting or the authority of the Holy Spirit who is Almighty God himself. Just because of our finite minds we attempt to restrict God into our own limited spheres. Just because God does not do something does not mean He cannot but more accurately will not. I agree. God is no further away than our hearts as we have this treasure in earthen vessels. God through the Holy Spirit lives on the inside of our body which is the temple of the Holy Ghost. We make our mistake in thinking God is so far away from us in time we can't reach him or he can't hear us when we pray. If we don't believe God is there to start with how can our faith believe God will even answer our prayers. But God is no further from us than a breath away He lives inside of us. We can come boldly into the throne room and let our petetions made known to him and to find more grace to help in time of need. God is right there and has been all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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