WilliamL Posted February 2, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,117 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,554 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted February 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: If one notices the only sign is as in the days of Noah before he entered the ark, when people are eating and drinking, and marrying and given in marriage. That/This environment exists right now. How true. And 'none of the wicked understood, but the wise understood' (paraphrasing Dan. 12:10) when the judgment was to come. Noah and his sons, but no one else, were told 7 days beforehand: Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted February 2, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2016 10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said: All of those things, post-tribbers like myself, agree with, so, do you have a point? Well the point was that the poster was not clear whether the Second Coming was unannounced and unexpected as contrasted with the Rapture. Since there are ample Scriptures and parables to confirm that the Rapture is indeed unannounced and unexpected, it should be crystal clear that it is NOT the same as the Second Coming. They are two entirely different events for different purposes and with different reactions. For the Rapture it is a "blessed hope". For the Second Coming, it is universal mourning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted February 2, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.11 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2016 13 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said: I think the logic you present there is sound Marv. Too bad it has so little to do with the verse you are basing your theory upon in this post. If Jesus had said "No one will know about the day or the hour, until . . . " you could be proud of your math and we could be confident in your conclusion. We know however, that Jesus never said that no one will know, and the fact that you know this, seems a bit disingenuous to keep bringing up the same erroneous argument that you always do. Anyone can make themselves sound correct, when one begins with a false premise. I do not grant your false premise that Jesus meant that no one would ever know. (for MorningGlory, if you read this . . . Here is yet another example, where I shall point out, that some people of the pre-trib persuasion, find it inconvenient to take the Bible literally when it does not suit their pre-conceptions.) I AM reading, O Man, and I won't disagree this time. Jesus said 'no one knows', not that no one would EVER know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2016 What Im not understanding is,Christ gave signs for His 2nd coming....Why would He do that if His people were not going to be here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, n2thelight said: What Im not understanding is,Christ gave signs for His 2nd coming....Why would He do that if His people were not going to be here.... for scripture is not a easy thing to figure out when you are not in the spirit , and if he showed and given signs through the prophets, then why would He not ,give for the second coming, its elementary , but this is interpret to those that are in the spirit that love Yahweh , and will see the path , for many can see , but only a few find it, and so the true and called out ones will see and will know what the mystery of the signs and events are, and the times of appointed times, will be, made known , but only the one that is patient and watches will see it , for we were blind but know we see ? blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2016 10 hours ago, MorningGlory said: I AM reading, O Man, and I won't disagree this time. Jesus said 'no one knows', not that no one would EVER know. So MG what time from a rapturist view are we talking about ....The rapture or the 2nd coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted February 3, 2016 20 hours ago, Montana Marv said: Scripture says that only God the Father Knows, not the angels in heaven or the Son. Unless you have some big revealing directly from God the Father, I cannot take you at your word with regard to the Rapture. And since God the Father is not the Word (Logos); I doubt you will find the time of the Rapture in Scripture. And with what I highlighted above (We know however, that Jesus never said that no one will know) He already stated that only God the Father Knows. You are bring in a seed of doubt. Not comparing you; but what did Satan say in the Garden? "Did God really say". In Christ Montana Marv Not like we have not already been over this Marv, so again, for those other who might read this, lets look at what is wrong with your assumptions and the idea you force upon scripture by not considering the context. Sigh . . . No man knows. That is present tense. Problem is, it was written 2000 years ago, so literally, 2000 years ago, no man knew. It is no longer 2000 years ago, but hey, what is context anyway, it just gets in the way, doesn't it? The remarkable thing is of course, that even Jesus did not know. So, would I be too loose, if I were to agree with you that we should understand that to mean, no man will know, only the Father? I won't do it, that is just bad exegetical practice to assume that when Jesus said "no one knows", that He really meant to say that no man will know. I will leave the scripture warping to you. Of course your misunderstanding, or your willingness to place your assumptions upon the text, is a common one, a very common one, especially among those who believe in the pre-trib rapture theory, and His imminent return, and other relatednotions not taught in the text, at least you have the comfort of not being alone. If we were to assume that you are correct, that Jesus should have said "No man will know", we will still have a problem. That tense change, will carry over to the whole thought. Only the Father will know, so even Jesus is in the dark about His return today, if we are consistent with your way of looking at it, and to be really literal, Jesus will never know about His return, not even when He does return. That is of course a very silly notion, but it is the truly literal conclusion, one must make (since I keep being reminded about how pre-trib rapturists favor literal understandings. Of course, it is not even that simple, your willful changing of tense, is not the only issue. Another issue, is that you totally ignore the context. When Jesus is speaking about no one knowing the time, he is not speaking of the pre-trib rapture. Many pre-tribbers have told me, that Jesus in Matt 24, is not speaking to the church, it does not apply to the church, it is only for the Jews, and blah blah blah, the rapture is not pictured, they say. Well then if that is true, then they cannot use the no man know except the Father about the rapture, because the rapture is not even the subject. Now, if they were to agree there, I would agree with them on that. The rapture is not the subject of Matt 24, unless . . . . unless it happens after the tribulation, when Jesus returns visibly. This is what I meant when I said in a post, that pretribbers like to claim to be literal, until it gets in the way of their pet theory. Well, it does just that in matt 24. Either the topic of Matt 24 includes the rapture (where it speaks of the gathering of the elect) or it is only about a visible second coming at a different time than the rapture. If that is the case, then the "No man knows" verse does not support what you try to force it too support, you cannot have it both ways. You change the tense to fit your theory, and you ignore the context to fit you theory. I do not mind that you have this theory, you are free to think what you will, but please, stop wresting the scripture from it's context, you theory is not that important that you need to do that, it is a scary thing to do. It is wrong - I do not mean just factually wrong, I mean the practice of treating scripture like that, is a moral wrongness. Please, for your own sake, cease with that practice. Build your case some other way, I don't have any idea how to do that, but find a way or stop leading people to deception. If the pre-trib rapture theory is a legitimate and true scenario, it must be in scripture somewhere, or else it is not something God intends for us to know. I appreciate that you said you are not comparing me with Satan, lol, how gracious of you, thank you. In the same way I also am not comparing you with Satan, you are a brother in Christ, he is not. But, since you brought it up, the "Did God really say" notion, sure I will ask it: Did God really say, there will be a pre-trib rapture? If so, I wish someone would show me where. To your point about "unless I had some big revealing directly form God", no nothing special no personal revelations. I don't expect you to believe me, I do not want you to beleive me, I do want you to believe what scripture says, not what it does not say, not what you wish it said. You have remarked twice now about something, that I am curious about, and you have not explained. What is this you keep saying about the Father becoming the Word? 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Omegaman 3.0 Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted February 3, 2016 22 hours ago, Montana Marv said: If one notices the only sign is as in the days of Noah before he entered the ark, when people are eating and drinking, and marrying and given in marriage. That/This environment exists right now. One has all sorts of signs and events which will lead up to the Second Coming. Not so with the Rapture. I would not disagree there about that being the case, that those signs (before the flood) exist right now. The problem is that that scenario is being applied to the second coming, the visible coming, which occurs after the great tribulation. Since that is certainly the case, and we do know, as youi have ponted out, that there are some signs that precede the second coming. So since that is all about the post-trib return of Christ, why even bring the rapture into it, if you think that it is pre-trib? If that is true, then those verse shave no relation to the rapture at all, I am totally missing your point, if you had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said: You have remarked twice now about something, that I am curious about, and you have not explained. What is this you keep saying about the Father becoming the Word? Omegaman Since God the Father is not the Word (Logos). One cannot find the time of the Rapture in Scripture. Since God the Father is the only One who knows the time of the Rapture. And Yes Jesus will know; When God the Father says to Him that the Bride is finished and ready, go retrieve her. But, is it not comforting to not know the day or hour for the Rapture, but only to Watch and be Ready for it. It is kind of like a father handing over the keys to a car to a son or daughter. They know one day it will happen, but the father is the only one who knows when it will happen. If one must get picky; John 1; The Word was with God in the beginning (before ALL was created) and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (Jesus). What tense is this? The Word being with God in the beginning. Is this still true now (the Word being with God the Father), the same as in the beginning. If so, nothing has changed between the Two. The Word is still the Word (Jesus the Son), and God the Father is still God the Father. Each aspect of God is/was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (forever). The attributes of the Godhead do not change. So if Jesus Christ (the Word) says that only God the Father knows. There is only one thing to know: Only God the Father knows. To try to wiggle it into Scripture is for philosophers. But what if.... But did it really say that no one would know the time or hour or day for the Rapture, at that time, but will at a future time. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted February 3, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.11 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2016 14 hours ago, n2thelight said: So MG what time from a rapturist view are we talking about ....The rapture or the 2nd coming? The Rapture, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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