Daniel 8

[Last Daze]

9 minutes ago, Spock said:

Daze,

Angel princes don't possess individuals, just "spiritually influence them" is this how you see it? 

I think they can do both.  Satan entered Judas.  I don't think possessing someone is something they aspire to though, more of something opportunistic.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Last Daze
clarification

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I think they can do both.  Satan entered Judas.  I don't think possessing someone is something they aspire to though, more of something opportunistic.

Ok, let me further this thought if you don't mind.

abaddon, the fallen angel from Rev 9 who comes out of the abyss. I see him as an angel who looks like man, and when he comes out, he will rule.  I don't see him as possessing or influencing any king or political leader, but rather ruling himself. 

This is how I see the dudes coming out of the abyss. 

Do you see things differently?

thanks,

spock

[Last Daze]

On 1/28/2016 at 9:02 AM, WilliamL said:

That Beast cast into the Abyss "is [will be] himself also the eighth [king]": therefore, you would have to say that Rome is the 6th, 7th, and 8th king(dom)s/empires. Not convincing.

The Beast in the Abyss has the 7 heads, of which Rome was and still is one: the 6th. But the Beast itself is not the spiritual ruler of a specific nation; rather, it is a rebel fallen angel of greater power than any nation-spirit. In Greek terms, it is the most powerful of the Titans that were cast into Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4), what the Bible otherwise calls the Abyss.

Since Spock gave the green light I'll explain my reasoning but I won't belabor the point.

As I see it, the key to understanding Rev 13 & 17 lies in understanding the cause and effect that the spiritual realm has on the natural.  The spiritual realm affects the natural, not vice-versa.  For the sake of brevity, I'll make some statements I consider to be defensible without going into detail.

• Certain specific kingdoms are spawned by evil angel princes.
• The heads of the dragon represent seven such kingdoms.
• The seven heads are uniquely Satan's as indicated by the crowns.  They represent his throne and authority.
• The 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 is the same 10 horned beast as in Rev 13 &17.
• The 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 does not have 7 heads.
• The 10 horned beast in Rev 13 & 17 is pictured as having seven heads to reflect the fact that Satan gave him his throne and authority.
• The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the fallen angel that spawned Rome.
• He will come up out of the abyss to finish his kingdom that got interrupted when he was thrown into the abyss.
• The sixth head of the dragon is Rome, I agree.

• Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.  The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.  Revelation 17:9-11

The seven heads are two things.  They are seven supernatural risings or mountains on which spiritual Babylon sits, and they are the resulting seven natural offices of king.

The evil angel beast causes the seventh mountain to rise which in the natural realm starts off as the UN.  Who is the authority, the king, of this divided kingdom?  There isn't one, so the beast is considered to be a "king", an eighth until the seventh king, the false prophet, shows up.

The dragon only has seven heads, not eight.  The beast is a defacto eighth "king", not a kingdom.  He rules the UN in the absence of a central leader or king.

[Last Daze]

33 minutes ago, Spock said:

Ok, let me further this thought if you don't mind.

abaddon, the fallen angel from Rev 9 who comes out of the abyss. I see him as an angel who looks like man, and when he comes out, he will rule.  I don't see him as possessing or influencing any king or political leader, but rather ruling himself. 

This is how I see the dudes coming out of the abyss. 

Do you see things differently?

thanks,

spock

The abyss being opened at the fifth trumpet is the fifth plague, the first woe.  This is a judgment for those who side with the false prophet.  Nothing that I read says that Abaddon comes up out of the abyss in Rev 9.  I don't see Abaddon as ruling anything but the demon locusts as they torment men.

[Marilyn C]

Hi  Spock,

Thank you for asking me those interesting questions. I find that when looking into God`s word I always learn something. To answer your questions I need to do a bit of background first. And this we all know but I just want to lay it out in order, OK?

 

SATAN – Prince of the Power of the air.(Eph. 2: 2)

He has 4 names which describe his 4 fold strategy. (Rev. 12: 9)

 

Serpent of old – deluder.

Devil – destroyer.

Satan – deceiver.

Dragon – devourer.

 

In the middle of the tribulation we are told that Satan & his angels are `cast out to the earth.` This refers to `power authority & time`

 

`For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.`   (Rev. 12: 12)

 

Satan is the angel of the bottomless pit. (Rev. 9: 11)

 

Then we see that he is `given the key to the bottomless pit,` (Rev. 9: 1) (Thus he was NOT in the pit.) He is allowed to release the many other fallen angels who have been held there. They are now given limited `power, authority & time.`

 

``And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.....& they were NOT given authority to kill them (people with the mark), but to torment them for 5 months.` (Rev. 9: 3 – 5)

 

Satan, the `star that has fallen from heaven,` is their king. (Rev. 9: 1)

 

 

Satan, the dragon is the power behind the Global Government & Leaders.

 

`And the dragon gave him his power, his throne, & great authority.` (Rev. 13: 2)

 

Here we see in Rev. 13 a `beast` arising, the final global Gentile Government with its two leaders – One with Political power, & the other with Economic & religious power. These are the main two functions in Government – One the `President,` & the other the Executive arm.

 

 President - `and he was given authority to continue for 42 months.` (Rev. 13: 5)

Executive - `And he exercises all authority of the first beast in his presence,...` (Rev. 13: 12)

So to answer your questions - You can see that I believe that it is Satan who is given the key of the pit & is not in it, as we know He is operating in the world today. Then you can see that I believe he operates behind the Global Political leader, giving him authority, power & rulership.   

So I only partly agree with what Last Daze & William have said. Lots to work through ay.

I will answer your first question later.

Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

abaddon, the fallen angel from Rev 9 who comes out of the abyss. I see him as an angel who looks like man, and when he comes out, he will rule.  I don't see him as possessing or influencing any king or political leader, but rather ruling himself. 

Agree with the essentials of what you say. I don't believe "he looks like a man." And he will directly influence his "mouth '[spokesman]" for 1260 days/forty-two months, till that mouth's demise.

Rev. 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he [the mouth] was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

Dan. 7:8 ...in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ... 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Ex. 4:16 And he [Aaron] shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee [Moses] instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

 

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

• The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is the fallen angel that spawned Rome.
• He will come up out of the abyss to finish his kingdom that got interrupted when he was thrown into the abyss.

You have presented no scriptural nor historical evidence to support these beliefs, nor like evidence to show that the Roman angel was ever cast into the Abyss.

[Spock]

11 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Agree with the essentials of what you say. I don't believe "he looks like a man." And he will directly influence his "mouth '[spokesman]" for 1260 days/forty-two months, till that mouth's demise.

Rev. 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he [the mouth] was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

Dan. 7:8 ...in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ... 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Ex. 4:16 And he [Aaron] shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee [Moses] instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

 

William,

are you saying the fallen angel from the abyss is a spirit being (not seen) who becomes the mouth of the beast?  Exactly how is this done?  Does he possess the beast, like the Exorcist type of possession? 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi  Spock,

Thank you for asking me those interesting questions. I find that when looking into God`s word I always learn something. To answer your questions I need to do a bit of background first. And this we all know but I just want to lay it out in order, OK?

 

SATAN – Prince of the Power of the air.(Eph. 2: 2)

He has 4 names which describe his 4 fold strategy. (Rev. 12: 9)

 

Serpent of old – deluder.

Devil – destroyer.

Satan – deceiver.

Dragon – devourer.

 

In the middle of the tribulation we are told that Satan & his angels are `cast out to the earth.` This refers to `power authority & time`

 

`For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.`   (Rev. 12: 12)

 

Satan is the angel of the bottomless pit. (Rev. 9: 11)

 

Then we see that he is `given the key to the bottomless pit,` (Rev. 9: 1) (Thus he was NOT in the pit.) He is allowed to release the many other fallen angels who have been held there. They are now given limited `power, authority & time.`

 

``And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.....& they were NOT given authority to kill them (people with the mark), but to torment them for 5 months.` (Rev. 9: 3 – 5)

 

Satan, the `star that has fallen from heaven,` is their king. (Rev. 9: 1)

 

 

Satan, the dragon is the power behind the Global Government & Leaders.

 

`And the dragon gave him his power, his throne, & great authority.` (Rev. 13: 2)

 

Here we see in Rev. 13 a `beast` arising, the final global Gentile Government with its two leaders – One with Political power, & the other with Economic & religious power. These are the main two functions in Government – One the `President,` & the other the Executive arm.

 

 President - `and he was given authority to continue for 42 months.` (Rev. 13: 5)

Executive - `And he exercises all authority of the first beast in his presence,...` (Rev. 13: 12)

So to answer your questions - You can see that I believe that it is Satan who is given the key of the pit & is not in it, as we know He is operating in the world today. Then you can see that I believe he operates behind the Global Political leader, giving him authority, power & rulership.   

So I only partly agree with what Last Daze & William have said. Lots to work through ay.

I will answer your first question later.

Marilyn.

Thanks Marilyn,

this makes much more sense to me to see Satan as the one opening the abyss to let some bad boys out to wreck havoc. And it makes sense to put the timing of this when he gets kicked out of the heavens. 

Do you see the beast's power as being world wide or limited to a particular sphere?  It seems to me it can't be global because there are so many nations who are opposed to his rule and fight him. I don't see how his mark can be implemented in every country, but it makes sense to see it limited, like the Middle East. 

Thanks,

spock

[WilliamL]

27 minutes ago, Spock said:

William,

are you saying the fallen angel from the abyss is a spirit being (not seen) who becomes the mouth of the beast?  Exactly how is this done?  Does he possess the beast, like the Exorcist type of possession? 

No, I am saying he becomes the Beast, who has a human spokesman/mouth(-piece). Who knows what form he will take; he may possibly be a shape-shifter, able to assume different forms. Here is the summary of how he came to be the King Angel of the Abyss:

“The Beast will ascend out of the Abyss.” Rev. 17:8; 11:7 So then, we need to discover WHO is presently in the Abyss, and WHY? These questions have been answered by Jude, Peter, Enoch, and also in Hebrew and Greek mythology:

Jude 6 The angels who did not keep their place of authority, but left their habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 …God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness [or, pits of gloom], to be reserved for judgment…

 

Tartarus is a term from Greek mythology, referring to the lowest pit (abyss) of Hades/Hell, wherein the Titans – rebellious gods of old – anciently had been cast by the “good” gods, i.e. the Godly angels.

The Book of Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15, provides more details. Briefly, angelic Watchers (cf. Jer. 4:16; Dan. 4:13, 17, 23) – “the sons of God” (Gen. 6:2) – became enamored by the beauty of human women, and came down (“left their habitation,” Jude 6) to have God-forbidden intercourse with them. Genesis 6:1-2 quotes Enoch 7:1-2. These angels and their hybrid progeny (Nephilim/giants, Gen. 6:4 etc.) soon corrupted mankind with sorcery, the arts of harlotry, and the arts of war. After “all flesh had corrupted their way” (Gen. 6:12), God decreed the Flood “to destroy from under heaven all flesh” except for Noah’s family. Gen. 6:17 At that time, God sent archangels to bind the rebellious Watchers, and to seal them into great pits rent in the earth:

Enoch 87:5; 10:15, 9 [They]cast them into the cavities of the earth. …“ind them for 70 generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment…and in the great day of judgment let [them] be cast into the [lake of] fire.”

So, these are the ones who are in the Abyss/Tartarus. Enoch tells us that they had two primary leaders:

Enoch 9:5-6 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… Semhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

Mosaic Law and Jewish Lore about Azazel

Leviticus 16 is Mosaic Law for Yom Kippur/the Day of Atonement, the holiest day of the year in the Israelite religious calendar. In verses 8, 10, and 26, the word usually translated in English as “scapegoat” is Azazel: the passages in Hebrew literally read “to/for Azazel.” “[A]ll the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions concerning all their sins, put…on the head of the goat” sent to/for Azazel. Lev. 16:21 – see Enoch 10:12 above.

“[T]he goat designated for Azazel was given to the kohen [priest] assigned to lead it away into the wilderness. And when this kohen came to the designated ravine…he pushed the goat into the ravine.” The Rabbinical Assembly, Machzor for Rosh Hashanh and Yom Kippur, 611. This act at the ravine, which is not included in the instructions of Leviticus 16, clearly was a custom that was added to commemorate Azazel’s being cast into the Abyss at the time of the flood.

The King of the Abyss

At the opening of the 6th seal, a Latter Day “great earthquake…[causes] every mountain and island [to] move out of its place.” Rev. 6:12, 14  Sometime thereafter, “a star having fallen from heaven to the earth…[is] given the key to the Abyss. And he open the Abyss,” releasing its demonic spirits. Rev. 9:1-2f. This “fallen star” is either Satan or one of his host, recently “cast out [of heaven] to the earth” by Michael and his host.  Rev. 12:7-9

Rev. 9:11 tells us that there is a “king over them [the Abyss’s demons], the angel of the Abyss, whose name is…Abaddon/Apollyon [Destroyer].” From the evidence shown above, this fallen angel must be Azazel, whose evils led to the destruction of the Noahic world: the Beast whose spirit has underlain the 7 great beasts/kings/kingdoms of subsequent ages. Even as his spirit was before, and will be again, underlain by that of Satan the Dragon:

Enoch 53:5-6 …the host of Azazel…became ministers of Satan, and seduced those who dwell upon earth.

Rev. 13:2 The Dragon [will give] him [the Beast] his power, his throne, and great authority.

[I've no reason why the line-through, tried to remove it three times.]