Anti-Zionism: Prophecy Update

[Guest shiloh357]

31 minutes ago, Salty said:

You are going too far.

Zionism has the aim to START UP THE OLD COVENANT WORSHIP AGAIN IN JERUSALEM WITH A NEW TEMPLE.

Nope.  The Temple movement is completely separate from the Zionist movement.   The Zionist movement is not religious at all.  It is a secular movement in Israel.

[Salty]

17 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Nope.  The Temple movement is completely separate from the Zionist movement.   The Zionist movement is not religious at all.  It is a secular movement in Israel.

I'm going by what my Heavenly Father said in His Word, which shows what the Zionist movement is pointing to, and not what men say it is or isn't.

I agree that Israel has the right to exist there, as God promised His servant David and Jerusalem He would always leave one tribe there (1 Kings 11).

But the Jews which re-established the nation of Israel in the middle east are orthodox unbelieving Jews who reject Christ, and they still believe they are under the OLD COVENANT, not The New Covenant. (And actually a lot of them don't even believe in God, which is amazing to me.) This is why there can also be a movement in Jerusalem to rebuild the temple and start up the Old Covenant worship again (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website). That will... be a part of established Zionism, because it has always... been part of the concept of Zion by the Jews. And it is a required event to occur for the tribulation (Rev.11:1-2; Dan.9:27 & 11).

Edited October 29, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

17 hours ago, Yowm said:

I think you just went too far.

Zionism is a movement desiring the Jews to have their homeland back in the land of Israel.

See my reply to Shiloh.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Salty said:

I'm going by what my Heavenly Father said in His Word, which shows what the Zionist movement is pointing to, and not what men say it is or isn't.

No, you're not going by the Bible.  The Zionist movement isn't mentioned in the Bible.  Zionism is a secular, non-religious movement in Israel and you just need to accept that fact.   Zionism isn't about rebuilding the temple.  If you did any research, you would know that.

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I agree that Israel has the right to exist there, as God promised His servant David and Jerusalem He would always leave one tribe there (1 Kings 11).

But the Jews which re-established the nation of Israel in the middle east are orthodox unbelieving Jews who reject Christ, and they still believe they are under the OLD COVENANT, not The New Covenant.

 

No, the Jews that re-established Israel were atheists and agnostics many who were holocaust survivors.   Many of whom were not religious before the Holocaust.    They were establishing Israel as a safe haven from persecution and anti-Semitism in Europe and in Arab countries.  They wanted to be able to live and defend themselves in their own country.   They had no intention of establishing a religious state.

 

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I agree that Israel has the right to exist there, as God promised His servant David and Jerusalem He would always leave one tribe there (1 Kings 11).

This is why there can also be a movement in Jerusalem to rebuild the temple and start up the Old Covenant worship again (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website). That will... be a part of established Zionism, because it has always... been part of the concept of Zion by the Jews. And it is a required event to occur for the tribulation (Rev.11:1-2; Dan.9:27 & 11).

 

 

 

No, the Temple movement is not part of Zionism.   It is completely separate from Zionism.   In fact, Zionists have been opposed to the rebuilding of a temple because of the unrest such a venture might incite.  It's why Jews have not been allowed to pray on the Temple mount.

[Salty]

52 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you're not going by the Bible.  The Zionist movement isn't mentioned in the Bible.  Zionism is a secular, non-religious movement in Israel and you just need to accept that fact.   Zionism isn't about rebuilding the temple.  If you did any research, you would know that.

No, the Jews that re-established Israel were atheists and agnostics many who were holocaust survivors.   Many of whom were not religious before the Holocaust.    They were establishing Israel as a safe haven from persecution and anti-Semitism in Europe and in Arab countries.  They wanted to be able to live and defend themselves in their own country.   They had no intention of establishing a religious state.

 

No, the Temple movement is not part of Zionism.   It is completely separate from Zionism.   In fact, Zionists have been opposed to the rebuilding of a temple because of the unrest such a venture might incite.  It's why Jews have not been allowed to pray on the Temple mount.

Zionism not mentioned in The Bible? You're joking, right?

Is it really possible to keep the idea of Zionism on a political foundation only, and not to ever include the idea of a re-established 'kingdom of Israel' with a temple and all the ornaments of old?

I say, pull my other leg and it plays Jingle-Bells.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Salty said:

Zionism not mentioned in The Bible? You're joking, right?

Is it really possible to keep the idea of Zionism on a political foundation only, and not to ever include the idea of a re-established 'kingdom of Israel' with a temple and all the ornaments of old?

I say, pull my other leg and it plays Jingle-Bells.

 

The Zionist movement isn't' rooted in the Bible.  The Zionists were not religious Jews and had no plans to rebuild the Temple or bring back the Old Covenant.   That is something you are assigning to them.    You are simply wrong.

[Guest shiloh357]

On 10/28/2016 at 7:06 AM, Remnantrob said:

Are the people of Palestine Semitic people?  If so then isn't fighting against them antisemitism?

The term anti-Semitism is universally understood as racism against the Jews.   That is how it has always been coined and used in modern parlance. 

 

[Salty]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

The Zionist movement isn't' rooted in the Bible.  The Zionists were not religious Jews and had no plans to rebuild the Temple or bring back the Old Covenant.   That is something you are assigning to them.    You are simply wrong.

Then you are terribly misinformed, because since Hertzl there's been MANY different branches of Zionism, and religious Zionism is just one of them!

So like I said, pull my other leg and it plays Jingle-Bells!

Edited October 29, 2016 by Salty

[Guest shiloh357]

19 hours ago, unworthydude said:

Does that mean God is anti-Semitic too based on your parameters?.. Didn't God declare he would make them be hated and put out of the land?

• Lam 4:11-16  The LORD has fulfilled His fury, He has poured out His fierce anger. He kindled a fire in Zion, And it has devoured its foundations.  (12)  The kings of the earth, And all inhabitants of the world, Would not have believed That the adversary and the enemy Could enter the gates of Jerusalem— (13)  Because of the sins of her prophets And the iniquities of her priests, Who shed in her midst The blood of the just.  (14)  They wandered blind in the streets; They have defiled themselves with blood, So that no one would touch their garments.  (15)  They cried out to them, "Go away, unclean! Go away, go away, Do not touch us!" When they fled and wandered, Those among the nations said, "They shall no longer dwell here."  (16)  The face of the LORD scattered them; He no longer regards them. The people do not respect the priests Nor show favor to the elders.

 

But that is talking about God's judgment upon them for their disobedience that led them into exile.   That doesn't justify modern hatred of Israel.  And no, it doesn't make God anti-Semitic.   God never judged Israel to the point that they were beyond redemption. 
 

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Wait, isn't a Jewish only state discriminating?

No, unless having any nation based on a single ethnicity is also discrimination.   That would mean that China, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, every Arab country, Mexico, and other nations based on a single ethnicity are discriminating and no one makes that argument about them.

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I thought Jesus's new covenant removed the racial distinction?

That only applies Gentile/Jewish appropriation of God's grace and their particpation in the Kingdom of God.   That doesn't mean that there cannot be a Jewish nation.

 

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Based on their covenant, didn't they have a conditional, blessing or cursing land agreement according to their obedience in Duet 28 and Lev 26? Have they repented of their sins and received atonement yet?

Yes, but that only applies to their experience of the promise.  It doesn't mean that God took the land away from the.  The promise of the land in Gen. 17:8,9 is unconditional.  Their enjoyment of the land is not.  The land is given to them and God has not rescinded that promise.

 

 

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Oh, I see. Ok. So they deserve it regardless? So, Zion can be built without obedience to God? Sort of a man-made kingdom?

No, they don't deserve it.  But the Bible, in Ezekiel 36: 1-24 tells us that they will be restored to the Land in a state of disobedience.   God isn't doing this because they deserve it, but in order to protect His Name.

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But wait, should we really support their blessings apart from obedience to God? Doesn't God prophecy a judgment against them? 

Zec 14:1-2  Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.  (2)  For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

God is not saying that He bringing the nation against Jerusalem so that they will rape the women and take the city into captivity.   This is what is going to happen at the battle of Armageddon to Jerusalem.   It's not God judging Israel.  It's God judging the nations and slaughtering the armies that come against Israel.   If you read the whole chapter, it is about Jesus returning to rescue Israel.

 

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Is God just being anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic? Should I approve of their state apart from God's covenant of law and obedience with them? I love my kin but should I help them despite God's conditions? Am I sinning supporting a godless rebellious nation who God is going to judge? Can I just love them by praying for them to repent and receive God's forgiveness in Christ and not be anti-Semitic for not supporting them?

The modern state of Israel is the direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy.  If your theology can't handle that, your theology is not in tune with the Bible. 

[Guest shiloh357]

18 minutes ago, Salty said:

Then you are terribly misinformed, because since Hertzl there's been MANY different branches of Zionism, and religious Zionism is just one of them!

So like I said, pull my other leg and it plays Jingle-Bells!

Right, but originally, you didn't make that distinction and the religious Zionists are a very small minority.  They don't represent the whole of Zionism and are not a major part of it.  The whole of Zionism from its inception has always been secular.   You were originally claiming that Zionism's purpose was build the temple and that Israel was founded by Orthodox Jews and historically that simply has not been true.   You can't refute that so you now try to move the goal posts as if you were talking about a small minority group within Zionism.   Dishonest tactics like that won't get you far.