Why Lutherans Do Not Believe in the Rapture

[junobet]

I hope posting Lutheran views on the rapture is allowed here:

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[FresnoJoe]

Amen~!

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29 (King James Version)

___

Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot futility? The kings and rulers of the Earth stood up and counseled together against Lord Jehovah and against his Messiah: "Let us cut their bands and cast their yoke from us!"

He who sits in Heaven will laugh and Lord Jehovah will mock them. But this he will speak against them in his passion, and in his anger he will trouble them: "I have set my King on Zion, on the mountain of my holiness."

"To declare concerning my covenant, Lord Jehovah said to me, 'You are my Son and today I have begotten you'." "Ask of me and I shall give you the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the Earth as your Empire".

"You shall shepherd them with a scepter of iron and like a potter's vessels you will shatter them".

"Now, kings, be wise, and be instructed, Judges of Earth". "Serve Lord Jehovah in awe, and hold to him with trembling".

"Kiss The Son, lest Lord Jehovah be angry, and you be destroyed from his way because his wrath burns even a little; blessed are all who trust upon him". Psalms 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English}

It's Interesting That We Can See
Most People Don't Actually Want Jesus To Rule Upon This Earth

The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Revelation 6:14-17 (New International Version)

Yet It Is True That When The LORD Jesus Descends
Back Down From Heaven

Then I will return to my place until they admit their guilt and turn to me. For as soon as trouble comes, they will earnestly search for me." Hosea 5:15 (New Living Translation)

Indeed The Dead In Christ Will Rise
From The Grave

For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? Romans 11:15 (English Standard Version)

___

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (English Standard Version)

___

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. Revelation 20:4-7 (Berean Study Bible)

And The Jews (Remaining)

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:8-14 (King James Version)

Will Rejoice To See

      “In that day you will feel no shame
            Because of all your deeds
            By which you have rebelled against Me;
            For then I will remove from your midst
            Your proud, exulting ones,
            And you will never again be haughty
            On My holy mountain.

       But I will leave among you
            A humble and lowly people,
            And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD.

      “The remnant of Israel will do no wrong
            And tell no lies,
            Nor will a deceitful tongue
            Be found in their mouths;
            For they will feed and lie down
            With no one to make them tremble.”

      Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!
            Shout in triumph, O Israel!
            Rejoice and exult with all your heart,
            O daughter of Jerusalem!

      The LORD has taken away His judgments against you,
            He has cleared away your enemies.
            The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst;
            You will fear disaster no more.

       In that day it will be said to Jerusalem:
            “Do not be afraid, O Zion;
            Do not let your hands fall limp.

      “The LORD your God is in your midst,
            A victorious warrior.
            He will exult over you with joy,
            He will be quiet in His love,
            He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy.

      “I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts—
            They came from you, O Zion;
            The reproach of exile is a burden on them.

      “Behold, I am going to deal at that time
            With all your oppressors,
            I will save the lame
            And gather the outcast,
            And I will turn their shame into praise and renown
            In all the earth. Zephaniah 3:12-19 (New American Standard Bible)

Their KING

~

And As For Reading The Whole Bible

In those days and at that time, I will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem.

I will gather all the nations. I will bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. I will judge them there. They scattered the Israelites, the people who belong to me, among the nations. They divided my land.

They threw dice for my people. They traded boys for prostitutes. They sold girls so that they could buy wine to drink. Joel 3:1-3 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

Well, There You Go

“Zion said, ‘The Lord has abandoned me,
the sovereign master has forgotten me.’

Can a woman forget her baby who nurses at her breast?
Can she withhold compassion from the child she has borne?
Even if mothers were to forget,
I could never forget you!

Look, I have inscribed your name on my palms;
your walls are constantly before me. Isaiah 49:14-16 (NET Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[FresnoJoe]

 

A Prayer For Israel
And A Prophesy Of The Anointed One (The Christ)

1In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:

“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.

“Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.

“Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.

“Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”

While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple  he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Daniel 9 (New International Version)

[FresnoJoe]

There Are Those Who Are So In Love With This Old Earth
They'll Even Peach It Will Never
Go Away

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Yet The LORD Jesus Has Other

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:21

Plans

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

You See?

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:14-20

May The LORD Bless The Reading Of HIS Word
Amen~!

Love, Your Brother Joe

[junobet]

5 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (English Standard Version)

__

As far as I know, this is the main verse ‘rapturists’ get their ideas of a rapture from. The video I linked does not go into 1 Thessalonians, so let me try and explain:

Paul and his contemporary Christian congregations believed that Christ would come back in their lifetime. So when the first of them died before Christ had come back, they got worried. These are Paul’s words of comfort to them.

He uses the then familiar image of an entourage going out to meet a King who comes home to his city. The idea would have been that you go out to greet the king and then accompany him back to the city.

So how ‘rapturists’ get it into their head that Christ will come back twice rather than once and that they will be raptured the first time, sit in heaven and comfortably watch on  as everybody else on earth suffers tribulations, is mysterious to me. It’s clearly unbiblical and no Christian before Darby has ever believed in this.

Love,

junobet

[FresnoJoe]

12 hours ago, junobet said:

As far as I know, this is the main verse ‘rapturists’ get their ideas of a rapture from. The video I linked does not go into 1 Thessalonians, so let me try and explain:

Paul and his contemporary Christian congregations believed that Christ would come back in their lifetime. So when the first of them died before Christ had come back, they got worried. These are Paul’s words of comfort to them.

He uses the then familiar image of an entourage going out to meet a King who comes home to his city. The idea would have been that you go out to greet the king and then accompany him back to the city.

So how ‘rapturists’ get it into their head that Christ will come back twice rather than once and that they will be raptured the first time, sit in heaven and comfortably watch on  as everybody else on earth suffers tribulations, is mysterious to me. It’s clearly unbiblical and no Christian before Darby has ever believed in this.

Love,

junobet

Peter's And

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:9-10

Paul's Words Were Given To Us

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Corinthians 10:14

For Our Edification Through The Power

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Of The Mighty Holy Ghost

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2

They All Are Up Close And Personal
In My Experience

My Darling Wife Believes In The Pre-Tribulation Resurrection

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:31-32

Whereas I Believe In The Post-Tribulation Resurrection

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Either Way, We Both Believe In The Resurrection

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

And The 1,000 Year Restoration Of Israel

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

The Total Destruction Of Earth

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:21

And The Cosmos

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

And The New

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Creation

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

~

PS: Beloved, There Are Dear Bible Believing Lutherans I've Palled Around With

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Revelation 22:3

Who Actually Believed The Words Of The Holy Bible

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:4-5

Even It's Ending

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. Revelation 22:10

Love, Your Brother Joe

[missmuffet]

The reason the Lutherans do not believe in the rapture is because they are amillennial. I was a Lutheran for many years. They get upset if you even mention the interpretation. They have a totally different interpretation of Revelation than the pretrib believer. The Lutheran Church is very similar to the Catholic Church.

[FresnoJoe]

17 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

The reason the Lutherans do not believe in the rapture is because they are amillennial. I was a Lutheran for many years. They get upset if you even mention the interpretation. They have a totally different interpretation of Revelation than the pretrib believer.

Post-Tribulation Folk

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Jeremiah 31:31-36

Too~!

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:9-10

 

Quote

2. The kingdom of God is both present and future. Amillennialists do not believe that the kingdom of God is primarily a Jewish kingdom which involves the literal restoration of the throne of David. Nor do they believe that because of the unbelief of the Jews of his day Christ postponed the establishment of the kingdom to the time of his future earthly millennial reign. Amillennialists believe that the kingdom of God was founded by Christ at the time of his sojourn on earth, is operative in history now and is destined to be revealed in its fullness in the life to come. They understand the kingdom of God to be the reign of God dynamically active in human history through Jesus Christ. Its purpose is to redeem God’s people from sin and from demonic powers, and finally to establish the new heavens and the new earth. The kingdom of God means nothing less than the reign of God in Christ over his entire created universe.

http://www.the-highway.com/amilc_Hoekema.html

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, FresnoJoe said:

Post-Tribulation Folk

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Jeremiah 31:31-36

Too~!

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:9-10

 

They are not Post tribulation Joe. They are amillennial. That is very different.

[simplejeff]

I was raised Lutheran and never believed amil nor pre-trib.  Didn't even hear much of such  until decades later in the lawless groups((where repentance wasn't needed to get saved - the "God blesses us all no matter what " crowd )).

Later leaned amil was designed on purpose to counter Scripture by the world church.  That entirely fits their design too.

However, without revelation from the Father in heaven , no one can know anyway.((even that Jesus is the Messiah)).

So Seek the Father, Prayerfully at all times.  He is the One To Trust.  Everybody we know might be liars, and wrong, but the Father in heaven can be Trusted Always.