Nothing left to tithe

[Guest Robert]

7 hours ago, disciplehelovestoo said:

if you owe more than you have, then all your income actually belongs to other people until you are out of debt, and you have nothing to tithe off of (10% of 0 = 0).  get out of debt first, then you will have actual income (increase) to give off of; and the first step in getting out of debt is to stop borrowing to please the wants of your flesh - like my daddy used to say: 'if you can't eat it, and it doesn't help you stay warm and dry, then you do not need it - you merely want it'

Gen 14:20 GNB
(20)  May the Most High God, who gave you victory over your enemies, be praised!" And Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of all the loot he had recovered.
 

there's nothing here about Abraham tithing off his own increase (what he had produced himself beyond what he owed others), just off the spoils of the recent battle he won.

Mal 3:8 GNB
(8)  I ask you, is it right for a person to cheat God? Of course not, yet you are cheating me. 'How?' you ask. In the matter of tithes and offerings.
 

'tithes and offerings' are estimated to be between 30% and 60% of increase (what you have produced beyond the debts that you owe others)...be smart - crawl out from under the weight of the OT law and follow the instruction for giving that was given to those under the NT law of faith in grace:

2Co 9:7 KJV
(7)  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

if the reason you tithe is to get God to 'rebuke the devourer', then your motive is necessity - and you are in opposition to the NT instruction above.

Heb 7:1-12 GNB
(1)  This Melchizedek was king of Salem and a priest of the Most High God. As Abraham was coming back from the battle in which he defeated the four kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him,
(2)  and Abraham gave him one tenth of all he had taken. (The first meaning of Melchizedek's name is "King of Righteousness"; and because he was king of Salem, his name also means "King of Peace.")
(3)  There is no record of Melchizedek's father or mother or of any of his ancestors; no record of his birth or of his death. He is like the Son of God; he remains a priest forever.
(4)  You see, then, how great he was. Abraham, our famous ancestor, gave him one tenth of all he got in the battle.
(5)  And those descendants of Levi who are priests are commanded by the Law to collect one tenth from the people of Israel, that is, from their own people, even though they are also descendants of Abraham.
(6)  Melchizedek was not descended from Levi, but he collected one tenth from Abraham and blessed him, the man who received God's promises.
(7)  There is no doubt that the one who blesses is greater than the one who is blessed.
(8)  In the case of the priests the tenth is collected by men who die; but as for Melchizedek the tenth was collected by one who lives, as the scripture says.
(9)  And, so to speak, when Abraham paid the tenth, Levi (whose descendants collect the tenth) also paid it.
(10)  For Levi had not yet been born, but was, so to speak, in the body of his ancestor Abraham when Melchizedek met him.
(11)  It was on the basis of the levitical priesthood that the Law was given to the people of Israel. Now, if the work of the levitical priests had been perfect, there would have been no need for a different kind of priest to appear, one who is in the priestly order of Melchizedek, not of Aaron.
(12)  For when the priesthood is changed, there also has to be a change in the law.

according to verse 10, when Abraham paid the tithe of the spoils he got from battle, he also paid the tithes of all his descendants; as a reborn believer, you are a descendant of Abraham:

Rom 2:28-29 KJV
(28)  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29)  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 

Rom 4:4-17 KJV
(4)  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5)  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6)  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(7)  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(8)  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
(9)  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
(10)  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
(11)  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
(12)  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
(13)  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
(14)  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
(15)  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
(16)  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(17)  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
 

pay your debts as quickly as possible, as you are the servant or slave of those you owe (Prov 22:7, Mat 6:24, Luke 16:13); then when you have increase that doesn't belong to others, give as you purpose in your heart, not not grudgingly, or of necessity; and out of a cheerful heart, not a fearful heart, and you'll find that 10% is a low goal

 

That is too easy an assumption to make, especially when the "cost of living" is so high nowadays, wages are not keeping up and unemployment is through the roof (no,Ii do not believe the government's "figures"). What is your answer when "you pay your debts quickly", only to find that those debts are food, medicine, rent and utilities and there is nothing left over?

Which do you cut?

[simplejeff]

Doesn't that depend on who rules your life;  who is in charge ? 

10 minutes ago, RobertS said:

Which do you cut?

 

[Qnts2]

22 minutes ago, RobertS said:

That is too easy an assumption to make, especially when the "cost of living" is so high nowadays, wages are not keeping up and unemployment is through the roof (no,Ii do not believe the government's "figures"). What is your answer when "you pay your debts quickly", only to find that those debts are food, medicine, rent and utilities and there is nothing left over?

Which do you cut?

Do you plan to stay in your current state your entire life, or are you making any plans or changes to improve your current state? (I am not talking about tithing or giving).

 

[Guest Robert]

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Edited February 23, 2016 by RobertS
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[Guest Robert]

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Edited February 23, 2016 by RobertS
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[simplejeff]

I guess you answered the question then.  ((about who's in charge, and who's not))

btw, my income even with a family of 4 was long time lower than sustenance income for just 1 or 2 people.

Since God was and is in charge, I trusted Him to bring us through.  He did and He does.

I didn't even sacrifice a goat ! 

RE "...telling me..." no such thing.   You missed the boat entirely.

4 minutes ago, RobertS said:

So you're telling me the Lord would order someone to not pay utilities, rent or other bills and essentially break the agreement you enter when you take them? To disregard authority and go back on your word to someone when they have the right to the money owed them honestly? That's breaking scripture.

You've never been in poverty, have you? I have, and none of it is as simple as is being made out. When you're living hand to mouth, it's a far different matter and the lord tells us in scripture to have MERCY on the poor.

You also forget Acts 15:

 

"No other burden", as in "We are not going to impose the rules of Judaism upon you. Instead, Paul would later clarify what giving was about: "as the lord prospers you", NOT "take everything they have, the blazes with the living expenses and you can go starve; just trust God to care for you". James was truly appalled by this one:

 

The legalism and utter heartlessness (not to mention the sheer disregard for the Lord's instructions per Paul and James) are beyond breathtaking here; they are absolutely appalling. As far as I am concerned, I'm done pretty much done this board. Yes, I know I won't be missed; but with this kind of absolute callousness and indifference, I think it will be mutual.

 

 

[simplejeff]

This was a question like a minister taking money from churches for his so-called ministry 

asked the 'poor' first : "how did you get  yourself into this predicament?" 

always.

as if it was their fault, always.   And he treated them that way all along through his so-called "ministry"  all the while taking money for himself from so-called "sponsors" who didn't  know what he was doing.

13 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Do you plan to stay in your current state your entire life, or are you making any plans or changes to improve your current state? (I am not talking about tithing or giving).

 

 

[simplejeff]

Hardly any brick and mortar seems set up and taught to do simply what Jesus says to do.

11 minutes ago, RobertS said:

You can plan as much as you like: it took another helping me to get out of the poverty I was in (I am not there now). But I have seen too often folks left to rot while others assumed that "it was their own fault" or "they smust have sinned to have that happen".

And with this reply (you posted while I was finishing my previous post, so I wanted to give you an answer before departing) I am done.

If you're not gone yet, do you remember how we ((the poor)) get help, from who?   And what Scripture confirms God's Plan for our lives  no matter  how poor we are ? 

Yes, you saw the bad side of things.  Did you also see the good side ? ((as it is written)).

[Qnts2]

2 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

This was a question like a minister taking money from churches for his so-called ministry 

asked the 'poor' first : "how did you get  yourself into this predicament?" 

always.

as if it was their fault, always.   And he treated them that way all along through his so-called "ministry"  all the while taking money for himself from so-called "sponsors" who didn't  know what he was doing.

 

When a person is poor, they need to take steps to improve their condition. Those steps will depend on a lot of things which we do not know in this particular case. I assume that it isn't their fault they are poor. It is their fault if they do nothing but bemoan their situation. 

A lot of people are poor, when they are just starting out. Others become poor because of the layoffs/loss of a job, or due to an illness, or divorce, or someone stole from them. I might live in an idealistic world, but I do believe a person can better their situation. I do not believe a person can tithe their way out as that is OT law misapplied.   

 

 

[simplejeff]

That's a relief, partly at least.    For further ((one)) example from Scripture, in BOTH the OT and the NT , what were God's people instructed if someone asked them to give them a ride 20 miles ((paraphrased for today's use)) with their back pack or luggage ? ((back then, it was or could be a very disliked soldier,  or a person of a different tribe or an 'untouchable'))

1) get a credit history/ do a credit check/ verify employment.

2) help them as able without expecting anything in return.

3) other.