Gods law verses the Pharisees Talmud ?

[Guest]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 7:31 PM, Qnts2 said:

Ok, now doubling back.

In the NT, Jesus was called a Rabbi, and he was recognized by the Pharisees as having disciples, as Pharisees had disciples. That was unique among the Pharisees.

 

This is not true, according to scripture.

Mt 9:14  Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

Mt 11:2  Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

John was no Pharisee that is for sure.

Lu 7:30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

[Qnts2]

7 hours ago, Joline said:

This is not true, according to scripture.

Mt 9:14  Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

Mt 11:2  Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

John was no Pharisee that is for sure.

Lu 7:30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

The disciple system was a system of the Pharisees, not the Sadducees. There were traveling Pharisees, who traveled with their disciples. The Pharisees recognized Jesus as a teacher, traveling with His disciples. 

Some Pharisees lived in one place, and taught the people in that location. They usually were heads of a synagogue. When a traveling Pharisee came through their location. The Pharisees who lived in one place and headed up a synagogue, would invite the traveling Pharisee or teacher to teach in the synagogue on the verses read in the synagogue on that day. We see Jesus, traveling with his disciples invited to speak about the verses of that day.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Luke 4:16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

¹⁷ And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

¹⁸ The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

¹⁹ To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

²⁰ And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

²¹ And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

John was recognized as a Prophet, and Prophets also had schools. John did not travel to synagogues that we know of.  

Your mistake was thinking that I was calling Jesus or John a Pharisee. Pharisees were trained in formal schools. I believe I read that there were approximately 2000 Pharisees.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

The disciple system was a system of the Pharisees, not the Sadducees. There were traveling Pharisees, who traveled with their disciples. The Pharisees recognized Jesus as a teacher, traveling with His disciples. 

Some Pharisees lived in one place, and taught the people in that location. They usually were heads of a synagogue. When a traveling Pharisee came through their location. The Pharisees who lived in one place and headed up a synagogue, would invite the traveling Pharisee or teacher to teach in the synagogue on the verses read in the synagogue on that day. We see Jesus, traveling with his disciples invited to speak about the verses of that day.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Luke 4:16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

¹⁷ And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

¹⁸ The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

¹⁹ To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

²⁰ And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

²¹ And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

John was recognized as a Prophet, and Prophets also had schools. John did not travel to synagogues that we know of.  

Your mistake was thinking that I was calling Jesus or John a Pharisee. Pharisees were trained in formal schools. I believe I read that there were approximately 2000 Pharisees.

Well Qnts I gave you the scripture that John had disciples.

Scripture also records those of his first disciples were also became Christs disciples.

As well as we see Paul running into those that had been baptized of John when he went throughout the Empire on his missionary journeys. Of which were found in the synagogues.

We also see the Apostles continued John's baptism as Christs disciples.

We also see the Apostles preaching the Gospel beginning from the baptism of John.

Josephus also records their were three main philosophical sects among the Jews. The Pharisee, Sadducee, and Essene. He himself had learned from at least two of those sects.

 

[Qnts2]

3 hours ago, Joline said:

Well Qnts I gave you the scripture that John had disciples.

Scripture also records those of his first disciples were also became Christs disciples.

As well as we see Paul running into those that had been baptized of John when he went throughout the Empire on his missionary journeys. Of which were found in the synagogues.

We also see the Apostles continued John's baptism as Christs disciples.

We also see the Apostles preaching the Gospel beginning from the baptism of John.

Josephus also records their were three main philosophical sects among the Jews. The Pharisee, Sadducee, and Essene. He himself had learned from at least two of those sects.

 

The Pharisees and Essenes taught those who came to them to learn. The Essenes were a much smaller group who pretty much disappeared. For the Pharisees, they taught the general population at the gates of the cities and the synagogues. The people who came to ask question of Pharisees and the synagogues were not considered disciples. A disciple was a person who followed a particular teacher, in a more dedicated manner. For the Pharisees, those who took on disciples did so by recognizing their basic training, or desire and ability. The particular Pharisee or school invited those considered qualified to participate as a disciple. The general population was not enlisted to be a disciple. For the traveling Pharisees, they would invite a person to be a disciple by inviting them to come and follow them.

Prophets also had students and schools, but those students and schools were usually to train future prophets.

Those considered to be Pharisees were trained by Pharisees. Only about 2000 Pharisees existed (some say around 3000). To be a Pharisee is more like a title or a membership which required a kind of certification/degree.  Jesus was not trained in any Pharisaical school and was therefore not a Pharisee, although Jesus noted that some of what the Pharisees taught was true. Jesus was recognized as a Rabbi, with disciples. Jesus disciples were considered a separate sect. But as a traveling Rabbi, Jesus was allowed to teach in the synagogues. Paul, who was a Pharisee was also allowed to formally teach in the synagogues.

John, a prophet, did not go into the synagogues. We know that some of John's followers accepted Jesus.

Jesus is unique from the other teachers in that after His death, He sent the Holy Spirit as a teacher, so today, believers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit are considered disciples.   

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

The Pharisees and Essenes taught those who came to them to learn. The Essenes were a much smaller group who pretty much disappeared. For the Pharisees, they taught the general population at the gates of the cities and the synagogues. The people who came to ask question of Pharisees and the synagogues were not considered disciples. A disciple was a person who followed a particular teacher, in a more dedicated manner. For the Pharisees, those who took on disciples did so by recognizing their basic training, or desire and ability. The particular Pharisee or school invited those considered qualified to participate as a disciple. The general population was not enlisted to be a disciple. For the traveling Pharisees, they would invite a person to be a disciple by inviting them to come and follow them.

Prophets also had students and schools, but those students and schools were usually to train future prophets.

 

Anyway, concerning the differing sects and their disciples, John's disciples were spread out.

Ephesus, those instructed in "the way"......johns baptism

Acts 18:24  And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Ac 18:25  This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28  For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Apollos at Corinth, Paul at Ephesus finds more disciples of John

Acts 19:1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
 

So, what you have said was not scripturally accurate in the time of John, and Christ....

[Qnts2]

4 hours ago, Joline said:

Anyway, concerning the differing sects and their disciples, John's disciples were spread out.

Ephesus, those instructed in "the way"......johns baptism

Acts 18:24  And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Ac 18:25  This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27  And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28  For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Apollos at Corinth, Paul at Ephesus finds more disciples of John

Acts 19:1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
 

So, what you have said was not scripturally accurate in the time of John, and Christ....

Sorry, but it is.

Let's start with the synagogue. A person was called up to teach. Those who were called up to teach were recognized teachers. Apollos was not said to be teaching. And it is not said he was called up to expound on scripture. Others could ask questions or comment. Or he may have been boldly speaking to people as in synagogues, it is and was common for people to talk with each other. Jesus was called to teach and Paul was called to teach. Jesus was called because He was recognized as a teacher with disciples and Paul was called because He was trained in the school of Hillel as a Pharisee. 

As far as disciples, not all of those who learned from the Pharisees were the disciples of the Pharisees. In that time, the Pharisees chose their disciples/students. Jesus chose 12 disciples to travel with Him. John would have chosen his disciples, although John baptised many, not all would have been his disciples. John, being a prophet, could have had disciples, just as there were schools of prophets.

[Ezra]

On 06/03/2016 at 7:21 PM, SINNERSAVED said:

for if we are understanding the whole purpose that Jesus went and told the people to listen to the law given but do not do as they do , for they have placed a fence around the Law of God by man made traditions which keeps people from entering the kingdom of heaven...

"Man-made" traditions is the key to the conflict between Christ and the scribes and Pharisees (which now carries over into the Talmud).  The scribes and Pharisees had elevated "the traditions of the elders" above Scripture, and frequently (or should we say invariably) these traditions went against the spirit of the Bible. For example, tithing mint and cumin became more important than truth, justice, and mercy (the greatest commandments).

Washing hands and utensils became more important than dealing with sins which were within. Ultimately, these traditions put these hypocrites on a collision course with Christ, since they did not repent and be baptized by John the Baptizer (who publicly denounced their sins).

Man-made traditions have also taken a stranglehold on "traditional" Christianity, and "Holy Tradition" has superseded the Word of God.  Thus we have modern "scribes and Pharisees" in Christendom, alongside the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who hold to their traditions while rejecting Christ.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Sorry, but it is.

Let's start with the synagogue. A person was called up to teach. Those who were called up to teach were recognized teachers. Apollos was not said to be teaching. And it is not said he was called up to expound on scripture. Others could ask questions or comment. Or he may have been boldly speaking to people as in synagogues, it is and was common for people to talk with each other. Jesus was called to teach and Paul was called to teach. Jesus was called because He was recognized as a teacher with disciples and Paul was called because He was trained in the school of Hillel as a Pharisee. 

As far as disciples, not all of those who learned from the Pharisees were the disciples of the Pharisees. In that time, the Pharisees chose their disciples/students. Jesus chose 12 disciples to travel with Him. John would have chosen his disciples, although John baptised many, not all would have been his disciples. John, being a prophet, could have had disciples, just as there were schools of prophets.

It is pretty obvious John had disciples which he had taught, and were going around teaching his baptism. The Pharisees were not the only sect having disciples. Even though you say so yourself, you still deny it?????????????? 

[Esther4:14]

I would just like to share some of the yeast of the Pharisees recorded in the Talmud.  I am quoting from a Kindle version of the Babylonian Talmud. 

"Jeremiah bar Aba in the name of Samuel said: One who catches a lion on the Sabbath is not culpable until he brings him into his cage," (loc 4997). 

"Is then the man culpable because of writing?  It is only because of making a mark, for thus were the boards of the Tabernacle marked in order that one mil tell which to fit together," (loc 4832).

"One who tears out herbs (which when damp are good for human food) for the purpose of eating them is culpable if the quantity exceeds the size of a dried fig," (loc 4805). 

"Everything necessary for a sick person, where the illness is not dangerous, should be performed by a gentile," (loc 4390). 

I guess someone missed the part where the commandment states on that no one shall work.  But, the gentiles are clearly not as special as the Jews. 

It is a wonder that we are still frequently debating the subject of Jew and Gentile when the teachings of the Pharisees are preserved and praised today.  It is as though the Bible says that God were a polygamist who plans to marry two wives, and no offense Gentiles, but He loves the first wife better. 

You may ask how did it come to be that He loved his first wife better, and it might be answered, because a long time ago there was a righteous man who had the discernment to know to obey God in taking his own son to be offered and then to listen when he was told not to do, and this kind of faith, discernment, humility is why his children were blessed. 

You then might ask, "do his children have this same discernment today? 

And, the answer might be, "Well do they revere the Talmud as a Holy book?"

"It would appear so."

"Well there is your answer." 

You see the Old Covenant separated and Gentile and yet still today, we still can't seem to accept that these elitist views of the Pharisees are why we have trouble understanding that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.  The only one this division really benefits is a Pharisee because many Jews were saved during the time of Christ and following Pentecost, but the Pharisees were not among them.  Instead of repenting of this, they decided to record their teachings in books to compete with the church.  Otherwise, they would more than likely have gladly kept them hidden in vaults only revealing what would appear innocent in synagogues and retaining the greater heresy's for private conversations justifying them as being beyond what the average person can understand.  

If you have read the Old Testament, you are more than qualified to understand anything in the Talmud.  There is no other special teaching, class, etc., that you would need.  If something seems wrong about it, this is probably because there is something wrong with it.  However, it can be difficult to say this when there is such pressure in the church today to worship the Jew and make them into some sort of celebrity. 

"And hearing, they glorified the Master, and said to him, You see, brother, how many myriads there are of Jews that have believed, and all are zealous ones of the Torah," (Acts 21:20). 

And so the Jews who were saved according to scripture, lost their identity because of the teachings of the Talmud.  The Talmud is a source of continuing to perpetuate separation of Jew and Gentile in the church, more than likely, because when the Jews could not stop the spread of Christianity by delivering them over to the Gentiles to be killed (Acts 21:11; Acts 23:12; Acts 25:2-3;9;15: Acts 26:2;), they desired to find a way to cut them off from their people (Leviticus 20:5; Leviticus 17:10; Leviticus 7:27;).  More than likely, it was because of Leviticus 17:10 which says, "I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people."

And Christ teaches, "And taking the cup, and giving thanks, He gave to them saying, Drink all of it.  For this represents the New Covenant which concerning many is being poured out for remission of sins," (Matthew 26:27-28). 

And, today, we still discuss the separation of Jew and Gentile as though we were still under the law that separated Jew and Gentile as a result of these things. 

I saved the best for last,

"This is the rule.' We have learned: If one threw a distance of six ells, two ells through error, the next two consciously, and the last again through error, Rabba declares him free.  (How can that occur?  As soon as the object had passed out of his hand and had not yet reached two ells, he became conscious that it was Sabbath, and before it had passed the next two ells he forgot again that it was the Sabbath.)" (loc 4727-4736). 

Did you catch that? 

I mean what if...

The true beauty of this hypocrisy is that there is no way to prove either case.  You would really be at the mercy of whether whoever was judging you liked you or not.  Say you were a friend, well the oral law says that he might have forgot it was the Sabbath again after he remembered it.  Some might say, "well this could very happen."  The other would say, "Well let him go then, he is not culpable." 

However, if you were not a friend, they could just say you were lying and accuse you of committing a crime that is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah, and there would be nothing you could do. 

Thank you Jesus that the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice (Psalm 45:6). 

Reference

Babylonian Talmud Anonymous Kindle Edition http://www.amazon.com/Babylonian-Talmud-Annotated-ebook/dp/B008I4QY4Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457435419&sr=8-2&keywords=babylonian+talmud

Electronic versions of the Talmud are available for free online and affordable on Amazon.  If you have read the Bible, you are more than capable of discerning the context of the text and it would be nice to see more people with a more objective view on the subject.  The way we talk in the church today, it would not be a surprise if the prophets themselves were removed from the Bible for being antisemitic in a few years.  It is just really sad. 

[Qnts2]

5 hours ago, Esther4:14 said:

I would just like to share some of the yeast of the Pharisees recorded in the Talmud.  I am quoting from a Kindle version of the Babylonian Talmud. 

"Jeremiah bar Aba in the name of Samuel said: One who catches a lion on the Sabbath is not culpable until he brings him into his cage," (loc 4997). 

"Is then the man culpable because of writing?  It is only because of making a mark, for thus were the boards of the Tabernacle marked in order that one mil tell which to fit together," (loc 4832).

"One who tears out herbs (which when damp are good for human food) for the purpose of eating them is culpable if the quantity exceeds the size of a dried fig," (loc 4805). 

"Everything necessary for a sick person, where the illness is not dangerous, should be performed by a gentile," (loc 4390). 

I guess someone missed the part where the commandment states on that no one shall work.  But, the gentiles are clearly not as special as the Jews. 

It is a wonder that we are still frequently debating the subject of Jew and Gentile when the teachings of the Pharisees are preserved and praised today.  It is as though the Bible says that God were a polygamist who plans to marry two wives, and no offense Gentiles, but He loves the first wife better. 

You may ask how did it come to be that He loved his first wife better, and it might be answered, because a long time ago there was a righteous man who had the discernment to know to obey God in taking his own son to be offered and then to listen when he was told not to do, and this kind of faith, discernment, humility is why his children were blessed. 

You then might ask, "do his children have this same discernment today? 

And, the answer might be, "Well do they revere the Talmud as a Holy book?"

"It would appear so."

"Well there is your answer." 

You see the Old Covenant separated and Gentile and yet still today, we still can't seem to accept that these elitist views of the Pharisees are why we have trouble understanding that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.  The only one this division really benefits is a Pharisee because many Jews were saved during the time of Christ and following Pentecost, but the Pharisees were not among them.  Instead of repenting of this, they decided to record their teachings in books to compete with the church.  Otherwise, they would more than likely have gladly kept them hidden in vaults only revealing what would appear innocent in synagogues and retaining the greater heresy's for private conversations justifying them as being beyond what the average person can understand.  

If you have read the Old Testament, you are more than qualified to understand anything in the Talmud.  There is no other special teaching, class, etc., that you would need.  If something seems wrong about it, this is probably because there is something wrong with it.  However, it can be difficult to say this when there is such pressure in the church today to worship the Jew and make them into some sort of celebrity. 

"And hearing, they glorified the Master, and said to him, You see, brother, how many myriads there are of Jews that have believed, and all are zealous ones of the Torah," (Acts 21:20). 

And so the Jews who were saved according to scripture, lost their identity because of the teachings of the Talmud.  The Talmud is a source of continuing to perpetuate separation of Jew and Gentile in the church, more than likely, because when the Jews could not stop the spread of Christianity by delivering them over to the Gentiles to be killed (Acts 21:11; Acts 23:12; Acts 25:2-3;9;15: Acts 26:2;), they desired to find a way to cut them off from their people (Leviticus 20:5; Leviticus 17:10; Leviticus 7:27;).  More than likely, it was because of Leviticus 17:10 which says, "I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people."

And Christ teaches, "And taking the cup, and giving thanks, He gave to them saying, Drink all of it.  For this represents the New Covenant which concerning many is being poured out for remission of sins," (Matthew 26:27-28). 

And, today, we still discuss the separation of Jew and Gentile as though we were still under the law that separated Jew and Gentile as a result of these things. 

I saved the best for last,

"This is the rule.' We have learned: If one threw a distance of six ells, two ells through error, the next two consciously, and the last again through error, Rabba declares him free.  (How can that occur?  As soon as the object had passed out of his hand and had not yet reached two ells, he became conscious that it was Sabbath, and before it had passed the next two ells he forgot again that it was the Sabbath.)" (loc 4727-4736). 

Did you catch that? 

I mean what if...

The true beauty of this hypocrisy is that there is no way to prove either case.  You would really be at the mercy of whether whoever was judging you liked you or not.  Say you were a friend, well the oral law says that he might have forgot it was the Sabbath again after he remembered it.  Some might say, "well this could very happen."  The other would say, "Well let him go then, he is not culpable." 

However, if you were not a friend, they could just say you were lying and accuse you of committing a crime that is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah, and there would be nothing you could do. 

Thank you Jesus that the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice (Psalm 45:6). 

Reference

Babylonian Talmud Anonymous Kindle Edition http://www.amazon.com/Babylonian-Talmud-Annotated-ebook/dp/B008I4QY4Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457435419&sr=8-2&keywords=babylonian+talmud

Electronic versions of the Talmud are available for free online and affordable on Amazon.  If you have read the Bible, you are more than capable of discerning the context of the text and it would be nice to see more people with a more objective view on the subject.  The way we talk in the church today, it would not be a surprise if the prophets themselves were removed from the Bible for being antisemitic in a few years.  It is just really sad. 

Please give accurate accepted citations. Nothing in this post is a proper quote of the Talmud. And it is all out of context.