pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I appreciate your response, but I believe the initial gathering of the faithful before Armageddon will be on earth, and also the faithful will then share with Christ the 1000 years with him upon the earth.

You are solely focused on earthly things, to the exclusion of heavenly ones. Those of the elect who are resurrected from the dead, along with the elect of the living at the Lord's Coming in the clouds, will be caught up to heaven just before the time of God's Wrath. These are the "great multitude... standing before the throne... who come out of the Great Tribulation." Rev. 7:9, 14 That Wrath -- which begins after the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of Rev. 6:12-17's 6th Seal, "the great day of his Wrath has come," 6:17 -- will be upon those who continue to rebel against him on earth.

But all of those caught up will receive bodies like Jesus had after his resurrection, which body was able to abide both in heaven and upon earth by choice. These elect, the Bride of Christ, "God did not appoint to wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9, and so the Lord will take them up to heaven during that period. After that Wrath has been fulfilled is a whole different matter.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Last Daze and Greetings again WilliamL,

15 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I think its important to remember that those who put on immortality and are caught up to the clouds just before Armageddon are immortal at that point.  Of what consequence is time and space to an immortal?

The first of the following indicates a definite period of time for the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and the second defines this period of time as 1000 years.

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (KJV): 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You are solely focused on earthly things, to the exclusion of heavenly ones.

Earthly seems to denote things that are derived from the earth, from man and not from God, but the Kingdom of God upon the earth will have its source from the God of heaven. I do not believe that the faithful will go to heaven when Christ returns.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

I do not believe that the faithful will go to heaven when Christ returns.

Well that is indeed a shame, since God and Christ tell us that Heaven (the New Jerusalem in particular) is the eternal home of the Church (John 14:1-4).

[TrevorL]

Greetings Ezra,

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

Well that is indeed a shame, since God and Christ tell us that Heaven (the New Jerusalem in particular) is the eternal home of the Church (John 14:1-4).

I appreciate your response. Even though John 14 is one of the most frequently quoted Scripture in support of heaven going, I do not accept that Jesus is here teaching heaven going. Firstly note that it is not talking about heaven going at death, as it clearly states that the Apostles were to await until the time when Jesus says “I will come again” and at that time he would “receive you unto myself”.

John 14:1-3 (KJV): ¹ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. ² In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

Another aspect of this passage is that where KJV has “many mansions” other translations have “many abiding places” or “many rooms”. The word “mansions” gives the impression of many luxurious houses, while the passage is speaking of one place, the Father’s house with accommodation for many.

 

Jesus already used the term “my Father’s house” and this earlier occurrence is speaking firstly of the Temple in Jerusalem and then the Temple of his body. Here it is not speaking of heaven, or God’s dwelling place in heaven.

John 2:16-21 (KJV): ¹⁶ And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. ¹⁷ And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. ¹⁸ Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? ¹⁹ Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ²⁰ Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? ²¹ But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

Paul in Hebrews also gives a similar perspective regarding God’s house and again it is not speaking of God’s house in heaven. It is also interesting that he speaks of “the heavenly calling”, but this does not teach going to heaven itself.

Hebrews 3:1-6 (KJV): ¹ Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; ² Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. ³ For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. ⁴For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. ⁵ And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; ⁶But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

 

Kind regards Trevor

[enoob57]

The most persuasion of scholarship seems the Bible indicates a pre-trib catching up 1Thes 4 .... it answers much in the timeline of God's Word to
the judgement seat of Christ, marriage supper of the Lamb, the mention of the  church in begin of Revelation then no more- then see the elders
before the throne of God in heaven while tribulation occurring  ,return of saints with Christ.. it seems the natural flow of Scripture.  Love, Steven 

[WilliamL]

On 3/24/2016 at 10:47 PM, TrevorL said:

On 3/23/2016 at 9:29 AM, WilliamL said:

Paul is quite clear about it:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire [i.e., Mount Sinai]... 22 But you [will] come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to a general assembly and church of the firstborn...

Read the whole passage: it is quite clear that Paul is saying that the first gathering of God's chosen people was to earthly Mount Sinai, and the latter gathering will be to heavenly Mount Zion.

I appreciate your response, but I believe the initial gathering of the faithful before Armageddon will be on earth...

Then you are willfully blind to what the scriptures teach. Like so many, you cherry pick passages that seem to agree with your view, and either ignore or deny the clear meaning of passages that don't.

Paul clearly told us "the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us [those of the Church] all." Gal. 4:26 Paul tells us we shall "come to ... the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..." He can't make it any clearer, and your beliefs are in contradiction to his testimony and other like scriptures.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings WilliamL,

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Then you are willfully blind to what the scriptures teach. Like so many, you cherry pick passages that seem to agree with your view, and either ignore or deny the clear meaning of passages that don't.

Paul clearly told us "the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us [those of the Church] all." Gal. 4:26 Paul tells us we shall "come to ... the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..." He can't make it any clearer, and your beliefs are in contradiction to his testimony and other like scriptures.

I appreciate your response, but I do not accept the description concerning sight or lack thereof. My assessment is that we have been in different environments as far as the understanding of the Kingdom of God. I could quote many passages in support of my understanding, and from my perspective these are overwhelming in teaching the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years. When I consider the early chapters of Acts, Acts 1 and the two speeches in Acts 2,3 I find no teaching of heaven going at death or at the return of Christ, but these all teach and/or are harmonious with the Kingdom of God upon the earth at the return of Jesus. My favourite passage in this respect is Acts 3:19-21 and this clearly teaches that Jesus will return from heaven to establish his Kingdom. I am happy to leave this aspect as it is not altogether the subject of this thread, but will leave open any minor response in this thread.

Kind regards Trevor

[enoob57]

10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings WilliamL,

I appreciate your response, but I do not accept the description concerning sight or lack thereof. My assessment is that we have been in different environments as far as the understanding of the Kingdom of God. I could quote many passages in support of my understanding, and from my perspective these are overwhelming in teaching the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years. When I consider the early chapters of Acts, Acts 1 and the two speeches in Acts 2,3 I find no teaching of heaven going at death or at the return of Christ, but these all teach and/or are harmonious with the Kingdom of God upon the earth at the return of Jesus. My favourite passage in this respect is Acts 3:19-21 and this clearly teaches that Jesus will return from heaven to establish his Kingdom. I am happy to leave this aspect as it is not altogether the subject of this thread, but will leave open any minor response in this thread.

Kind regards Trevor

when you begin to let God lead you in His Word, instead of you leading God's Word into your way, then you shall have the truth... Love, Steven 

[TrevorL]

Greetings enoob57,

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

when you begin to let God lead you in His Word, instead of you leading God's Word into your way, then you shall have the truth...

I agree wholeheartedly with your claim and we need to continually allow the Word to guide our thoughts and understanding 2 Timothy 3:14-16. What I have encountered though is ten or more different opinions from those who claim to be Spirit-guided. Could you please give a brief explanation of your understanding of Acts 3:19-21? Does this teach that Jesus will be in Heaven? What do the terms "times of refreshing" and "times of restitution or restoration" represent? What portion of the prophets do you suggest Peter is speaking about and possibly actually quoted in his speech, as Luke's record appears to be only a summary of the speech?

Kind regards Trevor

[WilliamL]

21 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I could quote many passages in support of my understanding, and from my perspective these are overwhelming in teaching the Kingdom of God on earth for 1000 years.

I have no disagreement at all with this understanding. The disagreement comes when you make the Kingdom of God and his people exclusive to the earth. At that point the scriptures disagree with you.