pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Montana Marv]

11 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are NOT in Heaven.  The unsaved and unrighteous can not enter Heaven nor be in God's presence.  If you have Scripture to support the above claim, please post it now.  Otherwise your comment has NO credibility.

n2thelight kind of dismisses Luke 16:19-31  the Rich man and Lazarus.  Kind of wonder why the Rich man was in Hades and he needed his tongue quenched.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

19 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes but you don't get there till after the 1000 years, you will need to get in line because of Israel.  We as Pre-Trib get there much earlier as promised in John 14.  For we Know the way to where Jesus now is.  The promise is that we will be with Him in His Fathers House (Third Heaven).  The thing is that this New Jerusalem is not where God the Father resides now for sin and death have not been fully dealt with (Death and Hades being thrown into the Lake of Fire).  For His expanse of His Realm (Third Heaven) now holds all creation within it, with the earth being the center of activity.  Then the New Jerusalem on this earth will be where God resides.  Then God will live with man.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv nothing in the verse you mention says anything about being in the Fathers house pre-trib, that is another speculation the pre-trib crowd has added to the word of God that misleads the public

[Montana Marv]

12 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Marv nothing in the verse you mention says anything about being in the Fathers house pre-trib, that is another speculation the pre-trib crowd has added to the word of God that misleads the public

Your Post-Trib view for those still alive prohibits any heavenly citizenship until after the 1000 years in the New Jerusalem.  That is not where Jesus now resides.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Your Post-Trib view for those still alive prohibits any heavenly citizenship until after the 1000 years in the New Jerusalem.  That is not where Jesus now resides.

In Christ

Montana Marv

In my Fathers house are many mansions, I go to prepair a place for you. The Bible says the Fathers house is coming here. Where is it in the Bible that says we are going to heaven.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

In my Fathers house are many mansions, I go to prepair a place for you. The Bible says the Fathers house is coming here. Where is it in the Bible that says we are going to heaven.

1. When Jesus said "in my Father's house" where was He?  On earth.

2. When Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you" where was He going ? To Heaven.

3. Did Christ literally ascend to Heaven? Yes

4. Is Christ literally seated at the right hand of God the Father? Yes

5. Therefore is His Father's house in Heaven?  Yes

6. Do the souls and spirits of believers go to Heaven?  Yes

7. Are the souls and spirits of the OT saints in Heaven?  Yes

8.  Did Stephen ask the Lord to receive his spirit? Yes

9. Did Stephen's soul and spirit go to Heaven? Yes

10.  Then how can anyone deny these truths? Because they do not believe what God has said.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

If you openmindedly study The Book you will see so many holes in the pre trib teaching. 

If the pre trib teaching is like Jarlsberg cheese, the post trib teaching is like Swiss cheese -- even more holes.

[n2thelight]

5 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are NOT in Heaven.  The unsaved and unrighteous can not enter Heaven nor be in God's presence.  If you have Scripture to support the above claim, please post it now.  Otherwise your comment has NO credibility.

Luke 21 - The Gulf In Heaven   5th Seal = Where are the dead?   Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Fifth Seal open, Notice, the souls are under the altar, not in the ground As the eulogies say in a the ground in a burial service The soul goes back to God, from whence it came They are saying.. . how long Lord? 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Notice, the souls are under the altar, not in the ground. Your soul goes back to God, from whence they came. The phrase, "avenge our blood on them on earth", proves that they had been in this world and were offended by the children of Satan. Souls that were killed by Satan Children's - John was beheaded...etc.. 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Notice White roles were given unto everyone one of them Fifth Seal open to them on earth = The Father is saying here that, Mark 13:9, This Must come to pass before He avenges their blood. This is to say that the elect, Will be delivered up for refusing to accept the false christ. The Lord will speak through you and the truth will go out to all the world, It is your destiny. His word, the truth is the two-edged sword, the very voice of God will speak through you. He will be using His elect as a tool to speak through them. His word, the truth is the two-edged sword, The elect will be part of the sword. Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. My Father's house are many mansions, means Resting Places 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.   Luke 23 Christ was crucified, with two malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left..   Luke 23:32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. Malefactors = evil doers Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. 33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they (kenites) crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.   Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Where are the dead? Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it What did Jesus say? To day shalt thou be with me in paradise = Luke 16 = Gulf in heaven 1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. What did Jesus said,  all appear before the judgment seat of Christ =  whether it be good or bad. Jesus pay the price for all that believe in Him Gulf in Heaven on the right side believers = and on the left side unbelievers   Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, Parable of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus Laid = cast down Sores = ulcer He was cast down at the gate, full of sores begging for food, from the rich man. 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. Desiring = eagerly desiring; but in vain as in would fain With = from Moreover = but (instead of find food) Sores = ulcer The poor man had ulcers about to fain, He was cast down at the gate, begging for food Here this man has more then he needed, but wouldn't help the sick man. He is saying, the dogs was willing to help the poor man, this is showing the dogs had more compassion than rich man. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; The beggar died and was carried by the angels, Into Abraham's bosom He's in heaven with the Lord. He was raising and changed into his own spiritual body, and he is resurrected to Immortality (deathlessness soul), means alive with the Lord. Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. The rich man also died and was buried. He was raising and changed into his own spiritual body, but he still has his mortal soul = liable to die soul. He's on the left side of the gulf in heaven with the unbelievers. Hell = "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: grave, hell = holding place until the millennium. Why is he on the left side of heaven?  It's not because he's rich. It's because of his works, he did not have compassion, he didn't care about anyone, but himself. He had more then what he needed, but he would not even give the poor man crumbs. Many people would said, it's because he's rich. If you work and earn your money the honest way, there's nothing wrong with having money. Many people are rich, they have compassion, and they help the poor, support their community and feed the poor. 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. What did Jesus said, all appear before the judgment seat of Christ =  whether it is good or bad. Did it say, Money or works? Verse 10, every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. What is the subject? Where are the dead? They're in heaven. The gulf  = holding place until the millennium Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Hell =  "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: grave, hell. John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Resting Places = the gulf is the holding place until after the millennium. 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. What did Jesus said = all appear before the judgment seat of Christ =  whether it be good or bad. Where was the rich man? He knows he's on the wrong side of heaven. He sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. What is this torment? He's ashamed, embarrassed by feeling of guilt, he knows he has done wrong. He's on the left side of heaven, he knows he still has his mortal soul, liable to die soul. He has to watch the beggar Lazarus in comforted every day. He being rich could have what he wanted - now he is judged by God. He has to wait until the millennium (1000 years) to be taught. After the millennium he will be judged again. Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 44  the millennium 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. They Will be taught the true word of God in the millennium - 1000 years with the Lord 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Tormented = distressed May dip the tip of his finger in water = The Living water He has to wait unto the millennium, he will be taught God's word, and he will be judged after the millennium again. (Revelation 20) Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Water = Living Water Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 22:2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Luke 23:31 We know that, Christ is the tree. Because only Gods gives life. The fruit are for the enjoyment of Israel who dwell within the new city. The leaves are for the healing of the nations both in and out of the city. Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. We know that sickness was done away with in Revelation 21:4 So, here we see a divine provision for preserving joy and fulfillment Which is never boring or even coming near boredom throughout all eternity Flame = ashamed, embarrassed by feeling of guilt, he knows he has done wrong You can see in heaven, money won't get you anything The Lake of fire = does not come into fact, until after the millennium (Revelation 20) Gulf = Holding place until the millennium Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Abraham said, Son remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things lifetime = life As being the opposite of death. He can see the poor man, but he cannot pass. This is distressed to see the poor man in comforted and he knows he still has a liable to die soul, he has to watch this every day, until the millennium. The reason for the distressed will be tension, anxiety, worry, he going have wait until the millennium, and be taught for 1000 years, before he is judge again. The people who don't have the knowledge and truth, which act as a buffer to the worldly problems, are going to get ulcers. Revelation 20 Then he will be taught God's word, and tested again after the 1000 years. Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. 3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: Neither can they pass from one side to another. John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.   Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Now he has compassion, he's in his spiritual body. But, It's too late. Now he wants to teach the word of God, he wants to help his family. It's too late, he has to wait in torment until the millennium He can see the other side of Heaven, everyone happy, these are with the Lord with "Resurrection, Immortality (deathlessness) soul, alive with Christ "means an instant change into the eternal spiritual state.  The poor man still has a mortal soul, liable to die soul. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. He is saying ...  they have the Bible 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Christ came back from the dead and they didn't believe Him 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. He said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, Neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. People want to live by the ways of this world They don't care about God   http://biblestudyforlife.com/gulf_in_heaven.htm

[HAZARD]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

1. When Jesus said "in my Father's house" where was He?  On earth.

2. When Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you" where was He going ? To Heaven.

3. Did Christ literally ascend to Heaven? Yes

4. Is Christ literally seated at the right hand of God the Father? Yes

5. Therefore is His Father's house in Heaven?  Yes

6. Do the souls and spirits of believers go to Heaven?  Yes

7. Are the souls and spirits of the OT saints in Heaven?  Yes

8.  Did Stephen ask the Lord to receive his spirit? Yes

9. Did Stephen's soul and spirit go to Heaven? Yes

10.  Then how can anyone deny these truths? Because they do not believe what God has said.

Perfect in each of the 10 points.

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

If the pre trib teaching is like Jarlsberg cheese, the post trib teaching is like Swiss cheese -- even more holes.

 

Post Tribulation Cheese.          V  full of holes,

Pree Tribulation Cheese.           V   No holes here.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I don't know, I think the pre-trib cheese is really stretching it!