Rethinking the Rapture

[JohnD]

What IS the rapture exactly?

Genesis 5:23–24 (AV)

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Where did he go?

He obviously vanished physically from Earth. But where did he go body, soul, and spirit?

 

[JohnD]

 

2 Kings 2:1 (AV)

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2 Kings 2:11–12 (AV)

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

It says he went into heaven. Heaven the dwelling of God? Or heaven the sky?

800 years later:

John 3:13 (AV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Where did Elijah go?

[JohnD]

Point being we presume to know what the rapture is...

what is it in your opinion? Or better yet, describe it with scripture verses.

[Ezra]

22 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Point being we presume to know what the rapture is... what is it in your opinion? Or better yet, describe it with scripture verses.

The other passage about Enoch makes the Rapture even clearer:

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5).

That word *translated* is the Greek word metatithemi, which means *to transfer to another place* (and is related to methistemi and methistano, which mean to change or to remove).  Enoch was taken up to Heaven, Elijah was taken up to Heaven, and the Church will be taken up to Heaven, *in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye*.  Since it is God who translated Enoch, it is Christ (who is God) who will translate the saints.  

It is noteworthy that within the space of one verse we have *translate* twice and *translation* once.  Which means that the Holy Spirit does not want us to be in any doubt about the supernatural nature of this event. It will include the removal of the saints from earth, as well as their transformation.

[JohnD]

I'll begin.

The rapture is the sudden absence of a person from this earth.

I believe this text covers most bases:

2 Corinthians 5:1–8 (AV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We are clothed upon with this tabernacle (our earthly house). We do groan but not to be without this earthly house but that it's mortality is "swallowed up" by life eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:51–53 (AV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Romans 8:23 (AV)

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Until the general resurrection, no one is resurrected from the dead except Christ Jesus alone. The dead in Christ will rise as their spirits return with him in the second coming.

But none of this precludes the rapture. These scriptures do not take away from the taking out of God's people before his wrath is unleashed on the world.

Revelation 3:10 (AV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Enoch was spared the global flood. Elijah the judgments that befell Israel. Noah and his family were delivered from the flood. Israel will be given the wings of eagles to be spared in the wilderness (Revelation 12).

3.5 years into the 70th Week of Daniel, believers in Jesus will be raptured out before the wrath of God begins. They themselves will be deep underground in hiding from the beast (God spares us from his wrath, but the devil's and the world's wrath have been waged against God's people since the beginning). 

Will this be a bodily taking out? Yes. Is this a resurrection? No. What will happen to the body? It will dissolve... to be resurrected in the general resurrection.

Not to worry. God can regather us all from the four winds. From the food chain (should our bodies fertilize a crop that is eaten for example). God can unscramble eggs.

[JohnD]

4 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The other passage about Enoch makes the Rapture even clearer:

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5).

 

That word *translated* is the Greek word metatithemi, which means *to transfer to another place* (and is related to methistemi and methistano, which mean to change or to remove).  Enoch was taken up to Heaven, Elijah was taken up to Heaven, and the Church will be taken up to Heaven, *in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye*.  Since it is God who translated Enoch, it is Christ (who is God) who will translate the saints.  

It is noteworthy that within the space of one verse we have *translate* twice and *translation* once.  Which means that the Holy Spirit does not want us to be in any doubt about the supernatural nature of this event. It will include the removal of the saints from earth, as well as their transformation.

I agree. Spiritually. We will be take directly to heaven since we are on this side of the cross. Enoch and all on the other side of the cross went to the side of promise in Sheol (later called Abraham's Bosom) until Jesus took them to heaven spiritually.

[Ezra]

2 minutes ago, JohnD said:

I agree. Spiritually. We will be take directly to heaven since we are on this side of the cross. Enoch and all on the other side of the cross went to the side of promise in Sheol (later called Abraham's Bosom) until Jesus took them to heaven spiritually.

I believe that according to the narrative itself, Enoch and Elijah escaped Sheol (Abraham s Bosom) and went directly to Heaven itself. God can make any exceptions that He chooses.

[mevosper]

On 3/23/2016 at 10:44 PM, JohnD said:

What IS the rapture exactly?

Genesis 5:23–24 (AV)

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Where did he go?

He obviously vanished physically from Earth. But where did he go body, soul, and spirit?

 

 

I hadn't seen this thread before starting another.

 

In short I believe the rapture is the saving of the soul from the grave. Relevant bible verses below.

 

The Body returns to earth

There are a number of bible verses teaching the flesh will return to the ground.

• [Gen 3:19 KJV] [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

• [Job 34:15 KJV] 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

• [Psa 104:29 KJV] 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

• [Ecc 12:7 KJV] [7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

The Grave as a prison

From what I’m understanding, the grave in Old Testament writing is compared to a prison.

• [Isa 24:22 KJV] 22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

 

…a ”prison” for the soul

The soul in Old Testament teachings was “buried” with the flesh.

• [Job 17:16 KJV] [16] They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust.(it’s not clear what is meant by ‘together’ here. Maybe as people in a group, or maybe as man and his soul)

• [Psa 22:29 KJV] [29] All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: andnone can keep alive his own soul.

• [Psa 44:25 KJV] [25] For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

• [Psa 119:25 KJV] [25] DALETH. Mysoul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

It seems the soul was “trapped”.

 

It seems contradictory that the spirit would go to God, and the soul is “buried” with the body. I believe the bible is able to divide these two “essences” (soul and spirit) (Heb 4:12), and does so in the verses above.

 

The Grave is permanent

• [Job 7:9 KJV] 9 [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more].

• [Job 21:32 KJV] 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

 

The snatching from the Grave.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the phrasecaught up in the KJV. Many know this Greek word to be harpazo meaning, among other things, “to snatch out or away”.

• [1Th 4:17 KJV] 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall becaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

The wording of the verse does not indicate from where there will be a catching up. A popular belief is that the human body will be instantly changed and “caught up” or “snatched” right out of the clothes.  What seems to be confusing is the “we which are alive [and] remain…”. But, in 2 Cor 5, God makes a person in Christ a new creature, a new creation.

• [2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

The flesh is not made new. The spirit in man is quickened, and the man is changed in the heart. When the flesh dies, the inner man is “snatched” from the eternal grave, and taken to meet with them in the clouds. Here is the most important part. Christ conquered the grave through his resurrection. So, forever now is the soul saved from going to the grave with the body. As the human body will return to dust, the now new creation will be returned to God. The dead in Christ, those whose souls were imprisoned in the grave, will be risen first:

• [1Sa 2:8 KJV] 8 He raiseth up thepoor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

• [Job 14:13 KJV] 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

• [Psa 30:3 KJV] 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

• [1Th 4:16 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Verse 51 says “we shall not all sleep”. This “sleep” is the soul buried with the body in the OT.

 

 

[JohnD]

 

I believe that according to the narrative itself, Enoch and Elijah escaped Sheol (Abraham s Bosom) and went directly to Heaven itself. God can make any exceptions that He chooses.

Sorry I forgot about this thread...

John 3:13 (NASB95)

13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

 

[JohnD]

 

 

I hadn't seen this thread before starting another.

 

In short I believe the rapture is the saving of the soul from the grave. Relevant bible verses below.

 

The Body returns to earth

There are a number of bible verses teaching the flesh will return to the ground.

• [Gen 3:19 KJV] [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

• [Job 34:15 KJV] 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

• [Psa 104:29 KJV] 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

• [Ecc 12:7 KJV] [7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

The Grave as a prison

From what I’m understanding, the grave in Old Testament writing is compared to a prison.

• [Isa 24:22 KJV] 22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

 

…a ”prison” for the soul

The soul in Old Testament teachings was “buried” with the flesh.

• [Job 17:16 KJV] [16] They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust.(it’s not clear what is meant by ‘together’ here. Maybe as people in a group, or maybe as man and his soul)

• [Psa 22:29 KJV] [29] All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: andnone can keep alive his own soul.

• [Psa 44:25 KJV] [25] For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

• [Psa 119:25 KJV] [25] DALETH. Mysoul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

It seems the soul was “trapped”.

 

It seems contradictory that the spirit would go to God, and the soul is “buried” with the body. I believe the bible is able to divide these two “essences” (soul and spirit) (Heb 4:12), and does so in the verses above.

 

The Grave is permanent

• [Job 7:9 KJV] 9 [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more].

• [Job 21:32 KJV] 32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

 

The snatching from the Grave.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 uses the phrasecaught up in the KJV. Many know this Greek word to be harpazo meaning, among other things, “to snatch out or away”.

• [1Th 4:17 KJV] 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall becaught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

The wording of the verse does not indicate from where there will be a catching up. A popular belief is that the human body will be instantly changed and “caught up” or “snatched” right out of the clothes.  What seems to be confusing is the “we which are alive [and] remain…”. But, in 2 Cor 5, God makes a person in Christ a new creature, a new creation.

• [2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

The flesh is not made new. The spirit in man is quickened, and the man is changed in the heart. When the flesh dies, the inner man is “snatched” from the eternal grave, and taken to meet with them in the clouds. Here is the most important part. Christ conquered the grave through his resurrection. So, forever now is the soul saved from going to the grave with the body. As the human body will return to dust, the now new creation will be returned to God. The dead in Christ, those whose souls were imprisoned in the grave, will be risen first:

• [1Sa 2:8 KJV] 8 He raiseth up thepoor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

• [Job 14:13 KJV] 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

• [Psa 30:3 KJV] 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

• [1Th 4:16 KJV] 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Verse 51 says “we shall not all sleep”. This “sleep” is the soul buried with the body in the OT.

 

 

The outcome makes all of this categorical and subject to the developments in the end of time:

Revelation 20:11–15 (NASB95)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.