The Remnants of Israel

[Sister]

 

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These are the firstfruits of redeemed and restored Israel and THEY ARE NOT SHOWN TO BE RESURRECTED. They are simply translated to Heaven.

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

Ezra

Ok, this is where I see another contradiction. 

The redeemed and restored of Israel are called "the remnants of Israel".  They will be brought back in "the flesh".  Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, you need your "change" first (to spirit), which is the whole reason why the remnanr are brought into the "kingdom on earth", Holy Jerusalem where the flesh dwells. They need to be taught truth first and multiply for a thousand years, before they receive their "change", which is what the 2nd resurrection is for.

The remnants of the last generation, the "survivors chosen", come into Israel on "foot".

Isaiah 11:16   And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.  (the remnants come on foot, not from heaven)

Isaiah 49:22   Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

 

Jeremiah 31:9   They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
 

 Isaiah 11:15   And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

  Isaiah 66:20   And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

 

[Ezra]

48 minutes ago, Sister said:

Ok, this is where I see another contradiction. 

The redeemed and restored of Israel are called "the remnants of Israel".  They will be brought back in "the flesh".  Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, ...

There is no contradiction if you can distinguish between (a) the Church, (b) the 144,000 redeemed Jews and (c) the believing remnant of Israel at the Second Coming of Christ (which remain on earth).

The 144,000 are seen in Heaven, and since they are found to be "without fault before the throne of God" (14:5) they are transformed and "redeemed from the earth" (translated directly to Heaven).  Please note carefully this scene in Heaven (v. 3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

[Sister]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

There is no contradiction if you can distinguish between (a) the Church, (b) the 144,000 redeemed Jews and (c) the believing remnant of Israel at the Second Coming of Christ (which remain on earth).

Yes, which is what I am doing, distinguishing between all three groups.

 

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The 144,000 are seen in Heaven, and since they are found to be "without fault before the throne of God" (14:5) they are transformed and "redeemed from the earth" (translated directly to Heaven).  Please note carefully this scene in Heaven (v. 3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Yes, I know the 144,000 are in heaven, I stated that already above pointing out something.  Look what happens after they are taken up with Christ, read the whole chapter;

 

 Revelation 14:1   And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

  Revelation 14:2   And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

  Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

  Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

  Revelation 14:5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

LOOK WHAT COMES "NEXT"

  Revelation 14:6   And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

  Revelation 14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

  Revelation 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

  Revelation 14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

  Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

  Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

  Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

  Revelation 14:13   And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

  Revelation 14:14   And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

  Revelation 14:15   And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

  Revelation 14:16   And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

  Revelation 14:17   And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

  Revelation 14:18   And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

  Revelation 14:19   And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

  Revelation 14:20   And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

*  The 144,000 are (RESURRECTED) "then" the angel warns the saints and the whole world about the Mark of the Beast which is "to follow." 

*  They have no rest day and night who worship the Mark of the beast, "THIS IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF "JESUS" (the hour of trial)

*  "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:  (these are the SAINTS being persecuted)

*  Then the HARVEST of THE EARTH COMES (1st resurrection),

I CONCLUDE FROM THESE SCRIPTURES THAT are SO CLEAR  That these 144,000 are resurrected right before the MARK OF THE BEAST is out.  THEY ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS of GOD and THE LAMB.  The FIRST-FRUITS of the 1st RESURRECTION, "not" first-fruits of the remnants of Israel.  The SAINTS who followed CHRIST, are the FIRST to come into the kingdom, WHERE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GENTILE.  The SAINTS will SET up the KINGDOM with CHRIST and establish it FIRST, before the REMNANTS of ISRAEL who do not know THE LAMB can enter.

This also corresponds to REV 7 where the sealing of the 144,000 so happens to be before the wrath starts, because God is TELLING the ANGELS, to HOLD BACK THE FOUR WINDS, and not to START destroying the EARTH until these are SEALED.  The same TIMING.  Can you SEE NOW?

And to make the CASE STRONGER, those who are measured INSIDE THE TEMPLE at THE ALTAR in REV 11 are MEASURED just before the 3 1/2 YEARS START with the 2 WITNESSES coming ON to THE SCENE.

The SEALING, THE RESURRECTION, AND THE MEASURING OF THE TEMPLE ARE ALL AT THE SAME TIME, RIGHT BEFORE THE 7 TRUMPETS, and I showed you PROOF that the REMNANTS of ISRAEL only come into the kingdom AFTER CHRIST DESTROYS BABYLON, and that they come in on DRY LAND, on foot, and by HORSE, and CHARIOT, and SWIFT BEASTS, not FROM HEAVEN!

So ADD 2 + 2 together and we get this;

The 144,000 are not the REMNANTS OF ISRAEL, or BELIEVING JEWS, but CHRISTIANS of all RACES, who FOLLOW THE LAMB WHERESOEVER HE GOES, in THE END TIMES.  They are the FIRST-FRUITS of the 1st RESURRECTION.  They just get there a little earlier Before the MAJORITY enters.

[Esther4:14]

Well, I have had an invigorating day re-reading the first 15 chapters of Isaiah today.  Context always helps when exploring new concepts in scripture.  I had to stop because otherwise this would end up being way way too long.  Bear with me, I am leading to a point that is relevant to the topic of the thread.  

The first really red flag that stood out to me was Isaiah 1:10, "hear the word of Yahweh, rulers of Sodom, Listen to the Torah of our Elohim, people of Gomorrah," then he goes on to talk about how the sacrifice is vain and how he cannot endure the evil assembly or the interpretation and application of the Sabbath.  So, Israel is being called Sodom and Gomorrah and Revelation 11:8 says that the bodies of the witnesses will lie in the great city figuratively called Sodom."  

Then, he goes on to remark how the, "faithful city has become a harlot," (Isaiah 1:21), and Babylon in Revelation is called the mother of harlots (Revelation 17:5).  

Then, Isaiah says "Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as with ropes of a cart; who say, Let Him hurry and hasten His work, so that we may see; and let the purpose of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, so that we many know...woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and discerning in their own sight...because they have rejected Torah of Yahweh of Hosts; and despised the Word of the Holy One of Israel.  On account of this the anger of Yahweh is kindled on His people and he has stretched out His hand against them, and has struck them; and the mountains quaked, and their dead bodies were as filth in the midst of the street," (Isaiah 5:18-25).  

So, this is basically a prophecy concerning the time of the witnesses.  The sixth seal is an earthquake where the sun turns black like sackcloth (Revelation 6:21) and the witnesses will wear sackcloth for 1260 days and the beast will wage war for 42 months (Revelation 13:5; Revelation 11:13).  

"In all this His anger does not turn away, but His hand is stretched out still," (Isaiah 5:25).  

So, basically what I am saying is that the judgement towards Israel is not complete.  The abomination of desolation will leave it completely desolate (Mark 13:14; Isaiah 10:22).  "Until when, O Yahweh? and He said, Until cities lie desolate without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land is laid waste, a desolation."(Isaiah 6:11).  

Because of this judgement, Isaiah was told to "Bind up the testimony and seal the Torah among my disciples. And I will wait on Yahweh who hides His face from the house of Jacob; and I will look for Him," (Isaiah 8:16-17).  

What he is saying is that the Testimony and Torah will be preserved through the disciples evidenced by Judaism use of Kabbalah and the Talmud.  They are not preserving these two witnesses because he is hiding His face from them.  In other words, this is the judgement for a hardening that benefits the Gentiles spoken of in Romans 11:25.  

"I will look for Him," is also the preview of things to come for seeking the Kingdom of God (Matthew 6:33).  

Then, after many other words against Israel where He repeatedly recognizes that they are not responding to discipline so His anger does not turn away, He says that for a second time he will recover a remnant of his people from many places (Isaiah 11:11).  

The first time would be the 7000 who did not bow to Baal (Romans 11:4), and this will be the second gathering of people who for one, do not appear to be in Israel at the time they are called; and for two, are going to be the remnant that remains after the land is desolated.  In other words, this is a remnant that will truly repent for the sins of Israel, and I think it is very reasonable to assume that this second remnant is the 144,000 listed in Revelation 7 according to Isaiah 11:12

"and He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather those dispersed from Judah, from the for wings of the earth." (cross reference Revelation 7:1-8).  

This remnant will then be like the children in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:18-20, "I said to their children in the wilderness, 'do not follow the statues of your parents or keep their laws or defile yourselves with their idols.  I am the Lord your God; follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.  Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us.  Then you will know that I am the Lord your God."

They will truly understand the sin of Israel in order to repent of it, more than likely, because the land is still going to be desolated according to prophecy, which is a very sobering thought.    

Additionally, it stood out to me today that the nature of the prophecy and the difficulty in understanding it is because of the judgement towards Israel as well.

In Isaiah 6:9 they were judged that they would hear and not understand and see and never perceive.  This is why the prophecy is written as a parable of sorts, which means that when the prophecy is understood, this judgement is ended.  Basically, lets all not be so quick to assume that prophecies have been fulfilled when we still are having so much difficulty understanding what they ever meant (Isaiah 5:18-25).  

I will stop there for now.   

[Sister]

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Then, after many other words against Israel where He repeatedly recognizes that they are not responding to discipline so His anger does not turn away, He says that for a second time he will recover a remnant of his people from many places (Isaiah 11:11).  

The first time would be the 7000 who did not bow to Baal (Romans 11:4), and this will be the second gathering of people who for one, do not appear to be in Israel at the time they are called; and for two, are going to be the remnant that remains after the land is desolated.  In other words, this is a remnant that will truly repent for the sins of Israel, and I think it is very reasonable to assume that this second remnant is the 144,000 listed in Revelation 7 according to Isaiah 11:12

 

Hi Esther

Israel was first overturned over by the Assyrians, and then the 2nd overturning was by kingdom of Babylon.  Since then they had been under the control of all the occupiers, until 1948.

Israel was made a state in 1948.  For this to happen God sent men to hunt Israel from all the nations where they were scattered to become a united people again in their own homeland.  This was the first gathering.

 Jeremiah 16:15   But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

  Jeremiah 16:16   Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

 

The second gathering will be after the 2nd Coming, when the chosen remnants will be gathered again out of all the nations where they have been scattered and brought into the Kingdom of God in Holy Jerusalem.  The second gathering is not for destruction, but for peace and truth.

Genesis 49:10   The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Isaiah 66:20   And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

 

The 7000 who did not bow unto the knee of Baal during the days of Kings (1 Kings 19:18) are preserved for the millennial kingdom.  This is just giving a hint that every generation of Israel has a remnant chosen.

 Romans 11:5   Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

All chosen to be brought into the millennial kingdom from every generation, except for that generation that came out of Egypt.

  Hebrews 3:10   Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
  Hebrews 3:11   So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

[Kindle]

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a remnant of Israel

Romans 9:27

 

 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

 

 

Isaiah 4:2-3

In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem

Isaiah 37:31-32

"The surviving remnant of the house of Judah will again take root downward and bear fruit upward. "For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."'

Joel 2:32

"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls

Edited March 30, 2016 by worthy

[Esther4:14]

50 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi Esther

Israel was first overturned over by the Assyrians, and then the 2nd overturning was by kingdom of Babylon.  Since then they had been under the control of all the occupiers, until 1948.

Israel was made a state in 1948.  For this to happen God sent men to hunt Israel from all the nations where they were scattered to become a united people again in their own homeland.  This was the first gathering.

 Jeremiah 16:15   But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

  Jeremiah 16:16   Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

 

The second gathering will be after the 2nd Coming, when the chosen remnants will be gathered again out of all the nations where they have been scattered and brought into the Kingdom of God in Holy Jerusalem.  The second gathering is not for destruction, but for peace and truth.

Genesis 49:10   The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Isaiah 66:20   And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

 

The 7000 who did not bow unto the knee of Baal during the days of Kings (1 Kings 19:18) are preserved for the millennial kingdom.  This is just giving a hint that every generation of Israel has a remnant chosen.

 Romans 11:5   Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

All chosen to be brought into the millennial kingdom from every generation, except for that generation that came out of Egypt.

  Hebrews 3:10   Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
  Hebrews 3:11   So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

I disagree that the first gathering was in 1948.  The first gathering is in done in presumption (Isaiah 5:18-25) the same way Saul presented the offering before Samuel arrived.  

Jeremiah 16:15 is referring to the exile because Jeremiah 16:16 is not referring to a return, but to the judgement.  

" But now I will send for many fishermen,” declares the Lord, “and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks. ¹⁷ My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes. ¹⁸ I will repay them double for their wickedness and their sin, because they have defiled my land with the lifeless forms of their vile images and have filled my inheritance with their detestable idols.”

This can have future and present tense connotations because there is nothing new under the sun.   

Future tense relates to Revelation 6:15-16 "Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;"

Present tense would be in regards to their judgement to go to Babylon do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars 

" “Remnant of Judah, the Lord has told you, ‘Do not go to Egypt.’ Be sure of this: I warn you today...So now, be sure of this: You will die by the sword, famine and plague in the place where you want to go to settle.” (Jeremiah 42:19-22).  

In other words they will be hunt down on every mountain and pay double for their wickedness.  

The scepter did not depart from Judah because it was given to Christ.  

Furthermore, if this was the fulfillment of prophecy, we would understand the Revelation.  It was hidden in a parable of sorts in judgement towards Israel and the desolation will have to happen first before there is a gathering of a second remnant, which means the judgement wasn't finished, which isn't saying anything bad.  It is just saying that God still recognizes the sins that were committed in Israel and they need to be repented of; however, the prophecy suggests that this won't be recognized so the land will be desolated and this is determined.  You know, they aren't in the land to begin with because of judgement against them, not because they are victims of persecution.  If they were obedient to the law, there was no persecution.  They were perfectly protected.  But, it was disobedience that brought about the expulsion and probably why under the New Covenant we experience persecution because judgment for their disobedience is not finished.  

But, like I said this isn't a bad thing.  Christ came and died for our sins.  The problem is that most people don't see the Jew today as being caught in a sin because of the way the prophecy is being misinterpreted.  " Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted" (Galatians 6:1).  This is how the church should approach a Jew or Judaism as a whole.  The current state of affairs for the Jew and their position on whether Jesus is the Messiah, should motivate us at this point to seek to protect ourselves in the church from wayward influence in Judaism that comes in our desire to believe that the judgement has passed.  Instead, we are letting them become our teachers when the book of Isaiah says that the testimony and the Torah would bound up in order to preserve them (Isaiah 8:16-17) and we are possessing them in the church today.  We don't need the Jewish community to teach us anything else that they have added to this over the years.  

The prophecy is also saying that a remnant will be joined to the vine, which is legitimate; however, the book of Revelation still does not say they will be rewarded with time in the Millennial kingdom.  But, this is unnecessary.  There is no reason why inhabiting the New Jerusalem is not enough for the remnant or for any of us that will never be martyred or be here when the mark of the beast is rejected by a few.  These will take part in the first resurrection.  

However, Isaiah is saying that the abomination that causes desolation will be judgement against Israel when Christ refers to her as Sodom and Gomorrah in Isaiah 1:10 and Revelation 11:8 and when he calls her a harlot in Isaiah 1:21 and Revelation 17:5, then a remnant will be spared.  More than likely they are elected by grace to see the deception of the present state of affairs.  When the scales fall and they realize that what they have been taught is a lie.  

The regathering in 1948 is a sign and wonder able to deceive the elect if that were possible (Matthew 24:24).  

The problem with realizing it for most it would seem is that they are wise in their own eyes more often than not (Isaiah 5:21).  Challenging this impression is challenging their ego rather than their understanding of the scripture.  

[Sister]

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I disagree that the first gathering was in 1948.  The first gathering is in done in presumption (Isaiah 5:18-25) the same way Saul presented the offering before Samuel arrived.  

Hi Esther4:14

I'm sorry I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  It's seems like we are on the same page in most areas, but regarding the gatherings I see it like this; 

In order for end time prophecies to be fulfilled concerning Israel, (beseiged by their enemies again) they have to be an existing nation again in their own land for this to occur, therefore they had to be gathered out of the nations and brought back to their land,...before this they were scattered.

  Jeremiah 25:29   For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

 

[Esther4:14]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hi Esther4:14

I'm sorry I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  It's seems like we are on the same page in most areas, but regarding the gatherings I see it like this; 

In order for end time prophecies to be fulfilled concerning Israel, (beseiged by their enemies again) they have to be an existing nation again in their own land for this to occur, therefore they had to be gathered out of the nations and brought back to their land,...before this they were scattered.

  Jeremiah 25:29   For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

 

Well the main point I was trying to make was to iron out the confusion over the gatherings to highlight the clear connection to the remnant after the judgement on Israel is complete.  Basically, according to scripture, if Israel is besieged again, this would mean that they are still under judgement.  Israel was not subject to persecution if they were obedient to the law.  Another siege of the land would be judgement.  This is the distinction between the two covenants.  The first promised peace and prosperity.  The New covenant says that we will experience persecution, more than likely because there is still judgement towards Israel.  

But, the point wasn't about it.  My point was how scripture demonstrating when the end of the judgement towards Israel is, we are able to see where the role of the remnant comes into play and the connection to the 144,000 listed in Revelation 7.  

It is a linear path.  When a remnant is gathered there will be a true re-establishing of Israel where everyone who has accepted Christ will be able to enjoy along with the remnant that is of the election (Romans 11:5), and there will be peace.  

But, this has to be a linear path.  Desolation completes the judgement and fulfills the time of Gentiles when everything comes together.  The final stages of prophecy are a lot like when the people inhabited the land before.  There are many comparisons that I am looking for when the wall of Jericho fell.  

However, it is a red flag for me that there is so much concern about the security of Israel.  If there is this much concern over the safety of Israel it is because of the same reason it always was, disobedience-not persecution.  Israel was not subject to persecution.  Without this security, this is not a fulfillment of prophecy in my opinion.  Therefore, a second look at the prophecy of Isaiah has me realizing why this is the case.  

I do enjoy our discussions as well Sister.

So, anyways, that was my process of coming to conclusion that the remnant is identified after the desolation.  

[Sister]

Thank you for explaining Esther4:14.  That was good.