Determining the Dates for Easter and Passover

[Paradigm]

10 hours ago, Joline said:

Thank you keith for your thoughtful effort here. Please take note, that if I say you don't understand, I mean you don't understand what I am really getting at. So please  take no offense. I thought I would add that as an addendum of sorts to some our previous exchanges. the reality is, we equally begin this discussion thinking the other does not understand scripture so that goes without saying on either of our parts LOL.

But from your comments above, you did not understand, and that more than likely is my fault. But if you will bear with me, maybe you and I can at least see where the other stands.

 

No problem Joline and thanks to you as well. It is nice to actually work through some of these differences in a polite and civil way. It seems to be a rare occurrence these days. 

I appreciate your patience in trying to lay out your points clearly. Yes, it is probably fair to say that none of us have a complete understanding of much. We may understand aspects and not fully comprehend other important ones. I also appreciate your humility and honesty. Most people cannot seem to refrain from mischaracterizing a position that is different from the one they hold. I apologize if I have assumed anything incorrectly or misunderstood any of your points. 

I will try to explain more of where I am coming from. Although I recolonize that details and specifics are very important, it is my desire to see the full picture as accurately as I can. I do think that getting the full picture in proper proportion is more important normally than the tiny details. 

I try to see the scriptures as a unity. I believe that they are a beautiful, unified tapestry. I do not want to throw out or change any puzzle pieces to make them fit a predetermined picture that I may have. 

Therefore in my thinking, there cannot be contradictions. One verse cannot annul another verse. If I pluck out a verse or verses and use them to shoot down other verses, there is something lacking in my understanding and I am still seeing the scripture as a fragmentation of contradictory pieces. 

Psalms 105:6-11

 ⁶ O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

⁷ He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.

⁸ He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

⁹ Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

¹⁰ And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

¹¹ Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:

10 hours ago, Joline said:

Again Passover is a Memorial of the  redemptive work of God Made in the covenant 430 years before the Sinai covenant. It still belongs to that covenant. We do indeed establish the law Keith. The Church of the firstborn. The apostles were acknowledging their DOUBLE PORTION in the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenants. We Gentiles have a share in the SECOND covenant with them as heirs. A father of many nations have I made thee. We do establish it.

Yes, we can see Passover even in Genesis 18-19. It is believed that Abraham's visitors appeared on Passover and Isaac was born the next Passover. It is a remembrance of God redeeming His people out of bondage through the hyssop (faith) in applying the blood of the lamb in accordance with his promise to Abraham. 

Ephesians 2:11-13 

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It is not just one covenant of promise that Gentiles were strangers to, but covenants. Of course Gentiles were grafted in from ancient times. We see a mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with Israel and became grafted into the tribes. 

The "new" covenant or brit chadesha is really the renewed covenant. Just as we do not have a brand new moon in the sky every month, but the same moon that has been renewed in its phases. 

The "renewed" covenant takes things to a deeper level. Rather than the Torah, commandments, judgements and ordinances being merely an objective reality on the outside, a new heart is given in which these things can be internalized enabling us to carry these things out as was intended in the first place. The new covenant is still not complete even yet in its totality. 

There has always been grace since the beginning, but there is no need for grace is there is no law. Again, sin is the transgression of the Torah/law and where there is no law sin is not imputed to man. We need grace because there is a standard. So, are we "under the law?" Not if we are "in Messiah" and "walk not according to the flesh, but the Spirit." 

If we abide in Messiah, we are not "under the law" for the torah/law is within us. 

Just as with Ezekiel and John, we have to take the objective truth of the scroll and eat it. The objective truth is to be worked out subjectively within us. Therefore it becomes written in the inward parts. 

If we abide in Messiah, we are no longer "under a school master." When we graduated from school, we were at that point no longer under our teachers. However, if we learned our lessons well, the information was internalized. We didn't suddenly throw out mathematics, reading and writing, those things became second nature for us. All of the information transmitted by the school master was internalized. Therefore we are no longer "under" them, but carry the truth of what was taught inside now. 

We can look at both the scriptures and history and see what the early believers practiced. We can also see when and how that changed and by who. We can either follow in the living examples of Y'shua and his followers and do what they did and avoid what they did not do or follow the precedents that were set later by Roman authorities. Currently Christianity as a whole follows the customs and practices of the latter and do not live as the Apostles did. 

It is my aim both see and live as the Apostles did. The Apostles did not participate in pagan practices and holidays. They kept the Biblical feasts and Sabbaths. Paul even told us a number of times to be followers of him even as he followed the Messiah. Therefore, I think it wise to do what they did rather than those who came later and established many of the doctrines and practices that have been inherited by most today. I hope that I have explained myself clear enough. 

Thanks again joline for your willingness to discuss these subjects in a calm and reasonable way.

Shalom,

Keith

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Paradigm said:

Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2 hours ago, Paradigm said:

No problem Joline and thanks to you as well. It is nice to actually work through some of these differences in a polite and civil way. It seems to be a rare occurrence these days. 

I appreciate your patience in trying to lay out your points clearly. Yes, it is probably fair to say that none of us have a complete understanding of much. We may understand aspects and not fully comprehend other important ones. I also appreciate your humility and honesty. Most people cannot seem to refrain from mischaracterizing a position that is different from the one they hold. I apologize if I have assumed anything incorrectly or misunderstood any of your points. 

I will try to explain more of where I am coming from. Although I recolonize that details and specifics are very important, it is my desire to see the full picture as accurately as I can. I do think that getting the full picture in proper proportion is more important normally than the tiny details. 

I try to see the scriptures as a unity. I believe that they are a beautiful, unified tapestry. I do not want to throw out or change any puzzle pieces to make them fit a predetermined picture that I may have. 

Therefore in my thinking, there cannot be contradictions. One verse cannot annul another verse. If I pluck out a verse or verses and use them to shoot down other verses, there is something lacking in my understanding and I am still seeing the scripture as a fragmentation of contradictory pieces. 

Hello keith,

Contradictions are important.................Here is where I understand them to be..................

The covenant made through Moses cannot be added to nor taken away from. To do so is a contradiction. Law can change, but not covenants. So, to think of covenant renewal, or expansion is contradictory. Each covenant stands as a distinct unit, a self contained unit if you will.

The covenants made to Abraham cannot be added to or taken away. That is what I see the new covenant teaching clearly, and the covenant given at Sinai says so clearly as well. Do not add or take away. You cannot "blend" covenants.

There are so many times it is made clear in the law, that the promises made to their fathers is the "goal" and "source" of many benefits and blessings in the Sinai covenant. God's continued objective is his keeping his promises made in the previous covenant. Therefore, God's very reputation, is connected to that covenant. He made promises, and he will perform them. It concerns his faithfulness first and foremost.

The covenant made at Horeb, is not even made with the fathers.

De 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
 

In the above we see that the Horeb covenant had no bearing upon Gods faithfulness to the fathers. It was not to fulfill  promises made to the fathers.

We also see in Hebrews, that the carnal command concerning the priesthood made at Sinai, cannot be taken away from the Sinai covenant either. Hence a new covenant was needed. Each covenant stands as it is. Therefore Anything "lacking" in a previous covenant, another covenant must be made to accommodate.

That is what the Davidic covenant was about. The Sinai covenant "lacked"  all that the Davidic covenant brought forth. Otherwise there would have been no need for another covenant.

The Davidic neither disannulled law, in that the law demanded any king be of their brethren. David certainly was an Hebrew. But more importantly God's goal in performing the promises made to Abraham continued as well.

Can we agree that a covenant cannot be taken away from , nor added to?

That was the mistake the Rabbis made Keith. In "ADDING" the promises made in covenants 430 years earlier, they also added the carnal commands to the promises. Hence demanding carnal circumcision and obedience to Mosaic covenant. And, it is still being done in various versions within "messianic" circles IMO. It is because of accepting Rabbinic thought, and tweaking it for a Gospel.

Hebrews and Galatians is fundamental to seeing this mistake. It is simply not to be done.............. This was much of their arrogance, and Jealousy, and their continuing of that concerning Gentiles.

Isreal is firstborn, a double portion from their fathers Two covenants of which they as firstborn walked in Keith. The ftirst the earthly worldy inheritance. The second an heavenly spiritual inheritance. The natural first, then the spiritual. They are not to be taken from, nor added to.......................

I would like to address Ephesians in my next post.

Again thank you keith.....................

 

[Paradigm]

6 hours ago, Joline said:

Hello keith,

Contradictions are important.................Here is where I understand them to be..................

The covenant made through Moses cannot be added to nor taken away from. To do so is a contradiction. Law can change, but not covenants. So, to think of covenant renewal, or expansion is contradictory. Each covenant stands as a distinct unit, a self contained unit if you will.

The covenants made to Abraham cannot be added to or taken away. That is what I see the new covenant teaching clearly, and the covenant given at Sinai says so clearly as well. Do not add or take away. You cannot "blend" covenants.

There are so many times it is made clear in the law, that the promises made to their fathers is the "goal" and "source" of many benefits and blessings in the Sinai covenant. God's continued objective is his keeping his promises made in the previous covenant. Therefore, God's very reputation, is connected to that covenant. He made promises, and he will perform them. It concerns his faithfulness first and foremost.

The covenant made at Horeb, is not even made with the fathers.

De 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Hi Joline,

Much of what you have stated I agree with. 

Keep in mind though passages such as Ephesians 2 that I quoted states that those who in times past were Gentiles were previously cut off and without hope. They were separated from the Commonwealth of Israel including the covenants of promise. In Messiah, the Gentile is no longer separated from the Commonwealth of Israel or the covenants for they have been grafted in. Romans 11 talks extensively about that topic.

Yes, each covenant can be viewed distinctly and uniquely just as each color of the spectrum can. However, each of the colors together create an unified rainbow. 

The destination was never meant to be Sinai as important as it is. The destination was Zion. Yet the Torah shall go forth from Zion and the Word of YHVH from Jerusalem. 

The new/renewed covenant did not replace any covenant. One of the major distinctions is its form. For example, we can have H2O in several forms. The element is essentially the same, but it can be manifested in different forms. 

The new/renewed covenant was made with the House of Israel & Judah. Gentiles can become part of the covenants of promise by being grafted in. The new/renewed covenant puts God's laws inside being written upon hearts rather than stones or parchment. 

Ezekiel 16:24-29

²⁴ For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

²⁶ A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. ²⁷ And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, (chukim) and ye shall keep my judgments, (mishpatim) and do them.

²⁸ And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. ²⁹ I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34

³¹ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

³² Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

³⁴ And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So we see that the new/renewed covenant is made with Judah and Israel. They are given a new heart and new spirit which will cause them to walk in God's statues and judgments and do them. They will desire to do them and be able to do them because they will be written upon hearts and minds on the inside. When this is fully accomplished there will be no need to teach others, for all will know YHVH. This covenant also reinforces inheriting the land.  

 

[Guest]

 

10 hours ago, Paradigm said:

8 hours ago, Joline said:

2 hours ago, Paradigm said:

Hi Joline,

Much of what you have stated I agree with. 

Keep in mind though passages such as Ephesians 2 that I quoted states that those who in times past were Gentiles were previously cut off and without hope. They were separated from the Commonwealth of Israel including the covenants of promise. In Messiah, the Gentile is no longer separated from the Commonwealth of Israel or the covenants for they have been grafted in. Romans 11 talks extensively about that topic.

Yes, each covenant can be viewed distinctly and uniquely just as each color of the spectrum can. However, each of the colors together create an unified rainbow. 

The destination was never meant to be Sinai as important as it is. The destination was Zion. Yet the Torah shall go forth from Zion and the Word of YHVH from Jerusalem. 

The new/renewed covenant did not replace any covenant. One of the major distinctions is its form. For example, we can have H2O in several forms. The element is essentially the same, but it can be manifested in different forms. 

The new/renewed covenant was made with the House of Israel & Judah. Gentiles can become part of the covenants of promise by being grafted in. The new/renewed covenant puts God's laws inside being written upon hearts rather than stones or parchment. 

Ezekiel 16:24-29

²⁴ For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

²⁶ A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. ²⁷ And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, (chukim) and ye shall keep my judgments, (mishpatim) and do them.

²⁸ And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. ²⁹ I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34

³¹ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

³² Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

³⁴ And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So we see that the new/renewed covenant is made with Judah and Israel. They are given a new heart and new spirit which will cause them to walk in God's statues and judgments and do them. They will desire to do them and be able to do them because they will be written upon hearts and minds on the inside. When this is fully accomplished there will be no need to teach others, for all will know YHVH. This covenant also reinforces inheriting the land.  

 

 

 

Hello Keith,

I am such a sloth sometimes. I had a response concerning Ephesians 2 all done up for ya..... But I hit the wrong button somehow and lost it. Tried to find it and could not, got distracted and well, I will redo it. 

I can see your sincerity Keith. And I do understand it. I myself became involved with the movement due to similar things. So I do understand your good heart in this. But more than that, I also appreciate this opportunity because none of us can know what we don't know. So to be able to bounce my thoughts on these things with you is truly a blessing. For if anyone is going to find flaws in my reasoning, it will be someone like you. The best would be to agree in the end, but we cannot err in agreeing to disagree, and part friendly none the less. It is God which does all of it anyway in the end.

So here goes concerning Ephesians..............

Ephesians 2 is about a contrast of the position of Gentiles and Jew's in times past, and the position of them both now in Christ....I am sure we would agree on this? So I want to begin Ephesians a little earlier in the text to help you to see what I see there. I think it is crucial. Well of course I do LOL, it's my opinion of the text!

I want you to take notice of what Paul says here. Both Jew and Gentile are equal in their human nature being children of wrath.

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Notice here the distinction being made is circumcision in the flesh...... Again we already know the circumcision concerns the Abrahamic covenant promises, and it also includes being made a citizen of Israel. How that is done is a proselyte is absorbed into whichever tribe he proselytizes into. So the gentile becomes a member of a tribe.

11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 

Keith, Christ means anointed one. This is talking about Gentiles in times past not having an anointed high priest as representative agency to appear before God, or whereby he draws near to God through. Being without circumcision there was no tribal afftliation as an Israelite. Why is this important? He bore their names in his holy vestments of ministry.

Ex 28:9  And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
Ex 28:10  Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
Ex 28:11  With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
Ex 28:29  And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
Ex 39:6  And they wrought onyx stones inclosed in ouches of gold, graven, as signets are graven, with the names of the children of Israel.
Ex 39:14  And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Keith here are some verses from the Greek Septuagint which literally say The priest that is Christ.

Le 4:5  And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16  And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 6:22  And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.

Le 21:10   And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;
Le 21:12  Neither shall he go out of the sanctuary, nor profane the sanctuary of his God; for the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him: I am the LORD.
 

Here is the Greek christos

 

Le 4:5 και λαβων ο ιερευς ο χριστος ο τετελειωμενος τας χειρας απο του αιματος του μοσχου και εισοισει αυτο επι την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 4:16 και εισοισει ο ιερευς ο χριστος απο του αιματος του μοσχου εις την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 6:22 (6:15) ο ιερευς ο χριστος αντ αυτου εκ των υιων αυτου ποιησει αυτην νομος αιωνιος απαν επιτελεσθησεται

 

Here is the Byzantine Greek of Ephesians.

12 οτι {CONJ } ητε {V-IAI-2P } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } καιρω {N-DSM } εκεινω {D-DSM } χωρις {ADV } χριστου {N-GSM } απηλλοτριωμενοι {V-RPP-NPM } της {T-GSF } πολιτειας {N-GSF } του {T-GSM } ισραηλ {N-PRI } και {CONJ } ξενοι {A-NPM } των {T-GPF } διαθηκων {N-GPF } της {T-GSF } επαγγελιας {N-GSF } ελπιδα {N-ASF } μη {PRT-N } εχοντες {V-PAP-NPM } και {CONJ } αθεοι {A-NPM } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } κοσμω {N-DSM }

13

The other Greek new testaments (not byzantine) use Christos exactly.

The byzantine uses christou as you can see

from Lev 21:10 and 12:12

Lev 21:12 οτι {CONJ } ητε {V-IAI-2P } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } καιρω {N-DSM } εκεινω {D-DSM } χωρις {ADV } χριστου {N-GSM } απηλλοτριωμενοι {V-RPP-NPM } της {T-GSF } πολιτειας {N-GSF } του {T-GSM } ισραηλ {N-PRI } και {CONJ } ξενοι {A-NPM } των {T-GPF } διαθηκων {N-GPF } της {T-GSF } επαγγελιας {N-GSF } ελπιδα {N-ASF } μη {PRT-N } εχοντες {V-PAP-NPM } και {CONJ } αθεοι {A-NPM } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } κοσμω {N-DSM }

Le 21:10 και ο ιερευς ο μεγας απο των αδελφων αυτου του επικεχυμενου επι την κεφαλην του ελαιου του χριστου και τετελειωμενου ενδυσασθαι τα ιματια την κεφαλην ουκ αποκιδαρωσει και τα

If you continue reading you can see that in Jesus Christ BOTH have gained access into the very household of God. Israelites were strangers themselves in the holy and holy holy. The word "zuwr is used of the Israelites being strangers to the priesthood. It means more ALIENTED. But they Appeared before God through the anointed priest and he bore their tribal names (of their fathers) in memorial before God in this world..................... 

The bottom line is in times past the difference between Jew and Gentile was the Priestly representation of the tribes of THEIR FATHERS, and the memorial unto the promises made to their fathers. Which was an earthly shadow.

We do not need to be citizens of Israel.

We can have access in Christ Jesus.

Blessings keith

Edited May 14, 2016 by Joline
additional comments

[Paradigm]

On 5/14/2016 at 8:04 PM, Joline said:

 

Hello Keith,

I am such a sloth sometimes. I had a response concerning Ephesians 2 all done up for ya..... But I hit the wrong button somehow and lost it. Tried to find it and could not, got distracted and well, I will redo it. 

I can see your sincerity Keith. And I do understand it. I myself became involved with the movement due to similar things. So I do understand your good heart in this. But more than that, I also appreciate this opportunity because none of us can know what we don't know. So to be able to bounce my thoughts on these things with you is truly a blessing. For if anyone is going to find flaws in my reasoning, it will be someone like you. The best would be to agree in the end, but we cannot err in agreeing to disagree, and part friendly none the less. It is God which does all of it anyway in the end.

So here goes concerning Ephesians..............

Ephesians 2 is about a contrast of the position of Gentiles and Jew's in times past, and the position of them both now in Christ....I am sure we would agree on this? So I want to begin Ephesians a little earlier in the text to help you to see what I see there. I think it is crucial. Well of course I do LOL, it's my opinion of the text!

I want you to take notice of what Paul says here. Both Jew and Gentile are equal in their human nature being children of wrath.

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Notice here the distinction being made is circumcision in the flesh...... Again we already know the circumcision concerns the Abrahamic covenant promises, and it also includes being made a citizen of Israel. How that is done is a proselyte is absorbed into whichever tribe he proselytizes into. So the gentile becomes a member of a tribe.

11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 

Keith, Christ means anointed one. This is talking about Gentiles in times past not having an anointed high priest as representative agency to appear before God, or whereby he draws near to God through. Being without circumcision there was no tribal afftliation as an Israelite. Why is this important? He bore their names in his holy vestments of ministry.

Ex 28:9  And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
Ex 28:10  Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
Ex 28:11  With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
Ex 28:29  And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
Ex 39:6  And they wrought onyx stones inclosed in ouches of gold, graven, as signets are graven, with the names of the children of Israel.
Ex 39:14  And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Keith here are some verses from the Greek Septuagint which literally say The priest that is Christ.

Le 4:5  And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16  And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 6:22  And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.

Le 21:10   And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;
Le 21:12  Neither shall he go out of the sanctuary, nor profane the sanctuary of his God; for the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him: I am the LORD.
 

Here is the Greek christos

 

Le 4:5 και λαβων ο ιερευς ο χριστος ο τετελειωμενος τας χειρας απο του αιματος του μοσχου και εισοισει αυτο επι την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 4:16 και εισοισει ο ιερευς ο χριστος απο του αιματος του μοσχου εις την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 6:22 (6:15) ο ιερευς ο χριστος αντ αυτου εκ των υιων αυτου ποιησει αυτην νομος αιωνιος απαν επιτελεσθησεται

 

Here is the Byzantine Greek of Ephesians.

12 οτι {CONJ } ητε {V-IAI-2P } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } καιρω {N-DSM } εκεινω {D-DSM } χωρις {ADV } χριστου {N-GSM } απηλλοτριωμενοι {V-RPP-NPM } της {T-GSF } πολιτειας {N-GSF } του {T-GSM } ισραηλ {N-PRI } και {CONJ } ξενοι {A-NPM } των {T-GPF } διαθηκων {N-GPF } της {T-GSF } επαγγελιας {N-GSF } ελπιδα {N-ASF } μη {PRT-N } εχοντες {V-PAP-NPM } και {CONJ } αθεοι {A-NPM } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } κοσμω {N-DSM }

13

The other Greek new testaments (not byzantine) use Christos exactly.

The byzantine uses christou as you can see

from Lev 21:10 and 12:12

Lev 21:12 οτι {CONJ } ητε {V-IAI-2P } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } καιρω {N-DSM } εκεινω {D-DSM } χωρις {ADV } χριστου {N-GSM } απηλλοτριωμενοι {V-RPP-NPM } της {T-GSF } πολιτειας {N-GSF } του {T-GSM } ισραηλ {N-PRI } και {CONJ } ξενοι {A-NPM } των {T-GPF } διαθηκων {N-GPF } της {T-GSF } επαγγελιας {N-GSF } ελπιδα {N-ASF } μη {PRT-N } εχοντες {V-PAP-NPM } και {CONJ } αθεοι {A-NPM } εν {PREP } τω {T-DSM } κοσμω {N-DSM }

Le 21:10 και ο ιερευς ο μεγας απο των αδελφων αυτου του επικεχυμενου επι την κεφαλην του ελαιου του χριστου και τετελειωμενου ενδυσασθαι τα ιματια την κεφαλην ουκ αποκιδαρωσει και τα

If you continue reading you can see that in Jesus Christ BOTH have gained access into the very household of God. Israelites were strangers themselves in the holy and holy holy. The word "zuwr is used of the Israelites being strangers to the priesthood. It means more ALIENTED. But they Appeared before God through the anointed priest and he bore their tribal names (of their fathers) in memorial before God in this world..................... 

The bottom line is in times past the difference between Jew and Gentile was the Priestly representation of the tribes of THEIR FATHERS, and the memorial unto the promises made to their fathers. Which was an earthly shadow.

We do not need to be citizens of Israel.

We can have access in Christ Jesus.

Blessings keith

Hi Joline, 

Sorry you lost the post. That is a real drag. It's happened to me before too. 

I don't think the Ephesians passage is really dealing with just a lack of a proper priest although Gentiles would have been lacking that too. In part, by not all it relates to Gentiles being excluded by Jews for later in the passage it discussed the middle wall of partition being brought down. This wall of partition was actually a real wall that was erected. Josephus speaks about it. No where in scripture is there a commandment to build such a wall, but they did. In Messiah (Anointed One) that separate is eliminated. 

However, we should also realize that each side has its pros and cons. To the Sumaritan woman, Y'shua answers her question by stating: What you worship, you know not what. We know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 

Again, Paul asked the question what profit does the Jew have. He answers by saying, much in every way for unto them were given the oracles of God. 

So the Gentiles were at a disadvantage in many ways, but through Messiah have the opportunity to be no longer aliens to the Commonwealth of Israel or the covenants of promise. There is one faith and that one faith establishes the Torah. Part of the purpose of the Messiah's death was to make the two ONE.

Sorry this is so short, but my time has been pretty limited. Thanks again for your thoughtful posts and blessings to you as well.

Keith