Why the Great Trib May Be of Short Duration

[Last Daze]

37 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

 

That is only your interpretation.

The First Seal does not begin until the A/D is set up.  The 7th Bowl is completed prior to Armageddon.  This whole 1260 day period is the time of great distress of Matt 24:21.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Again, you provide assertions, no scripture to back it up.  The end of the great tribulation occurring at the sixth seal is supported by comparing what Jesus said in Matthew 24 to the events associated with the sixth seal.

• But immediately after the tribulation of those days [after the great tribulation] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.  Matthew 24:29-30a

• I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.  The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:12-17

See the similarities?  The great tribulation ends at the sixth seal.  What follows is the seven plagues, the wrath of God.

[WilliamL]

20 hours ago, Ezra said:

"Come out of" does not necessarily mean *experienced* (which has been the automatic interpretation). It can also mean *escaped*.

Strong's Concordance

erchomai: to come, go

...So this numberless multitude escaped the Great Tribulation for the simple reason that it was never designed for them.  This multitude is the Church, which is raptured long before the Great Tribulation.  This verse would apply (Rev 3:10)

King James Bible
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You translated the verb, but ignored the more important adjective, ek: ἐκ ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds): from, out of.

You cannot "come out of" something you haven't been in. In this case, the great multitude were in the Great Tribulation and came out of it. Therefore the Great Tribulation had, at the very least, already begun before Rev. 7 -- the point of my original post. Whereas you said that that it won't begin until Rev. 15. You've just tried to dodge the issue.

Rev. 3:10 has nothing to do with it, a red herring. Yes, you can keep out of something by not getting into it in the first place; but Rev. 7 clearly states that the great multitude was already in the Great Tribulation, and came out of it. Keep and came are two entirely different cases.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Irrelevant.  We're talking specifically about the great tribulation.  Show me scripture that states that the great tribulation, as defined by Jesus in Matthew 24, lasts for 1260 days.

Dan 9:27 - "In the middle of the Seven"  ......  he will set up the A/D    So according to Matt 24  "when you see standing in the Holy Place", which is in the middle of the week, therefore there are 1,260 days left in the 70th Week.

Even using the 4th century AD Greek Septuagint version of Daniel, which shows more additions and textual changes to the Hebrew text (percentage-wise) than any other biblical book, you do not find the words "he will set up the Abomination of Desolation." This is pure Westcott-Hort/NIV revisionism.

Using the Hebrew text, you do not find the words "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 9:27 at all. This is a fraud foisted upon the Holy Scriptures, pure and simple, and I'm calling it for what it is.

 

[Marilyn C]

Here is my reason for the `shortening of the Great trib.`

The General Overview of Gentile`s Rule, to God`s kingdom.

In the book of Daniel we read of God`s word concerning the times of the Gentiles ruling the world & the coming rulership of God`s kingdom.

`...in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;....`(Dan. 2: 44)

This shows us that there will be an end to the Gentile`s rulership & that God will set up His kingdom. Later in Daniel we read of some details concerning that time.

 `...there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people (Israel) shall be delivered.` (Dan. 12: 1)

The Lord Himself speaks of that time when the Gentile`s rulership will finish & God will set up His rulership.

`And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 24)

`For there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

.............Times of Gentiles –> end, Gt trib................I............God`s kingdom....

 

Thus we would gather from that that the end of the times of the Gentile`s ruling is with great tribulation & then God`s kingdom comes.

 

When the Gentile Rulership Ends.

 

However.....we are given more details of that time by the Lord Himself to Israel.

`And if those days had not been shortened, no flesh would be saved;.....` (Matt. 24: 22)

.............Gentile Rulership.....................X... shortened....I......God`s kingdom....

.............Israel Persecuted.....................X....2 months.....I......New Year..........

 

X – It marks the `shortening` of the Gentile`s rule. It does not go right up to God`s kingdom but is cut short by the Lord. He returns & deals with the Gentile Rulership, their army, Satan & his demons.

 

Shortened – The time before God`s kingdom is set up. It is of 2 months duration.

 

God`s Kingdom -  The Millennium, Israel`s New Year.

 

The 2 months.

 

Israel`s last month before their New Year is called Adar, & it is doubled every three years or so. This is to bring it into line with their feasts & to catch up with the solar calendar. Daniel shows us these 2 months.

 

`Blessed is he who waits, & comes to the 1, 290 days. Blessed is he who waits, & comes to the 1,335 days.` (Dan. 12: 11 & 12)

..........1,260 days......................X....30 days..&....30 days...I....15 days.....

 

God has specific purposes for those 2 months.   

                                                            

Adar 1 – 30 days (1,290)

• The Lord connects with Israel. Israel mourns. (Zech. 12: 7 – 10)

• The people of the nations are judged as to how they treated Israel. (Matt. 25: 31 – 46)

Adar 2 – 30 days (1,320)

The Lord sets up the kingdom.

King – David, regent, Priests & Rulers. (Jer. 30: 9  Isa. 66: 21  & Luke 19: 17)

Many people of Israel are brought from all over the world to the land of Israel. (Isa. 66: 20)

 

God`s Kingdom – 15^th day the Feast of Tabernacles. (1,335)

 

`Blessed is he who waits, & comes to the 1,335 days.` (Dan. 12: 12)

`...everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, & to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.` (Zech. 14: 16)

`The 15<sup>th</sup> day of the seven month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles...` (Lev. 23: 34)

(Note the 7^th month is the beginning of Israel`s New Year. In the millennium the Civil  (1<sup>st</sup>)& Religious months (7<sup>th</sup>) will come together in God`s kingdom, as the Lord is King & High Priest.)

Marilyn.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Marilyn C

[WilliamL]

9 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

The Lord Himself speaks of that time when the Gentile`s rulership will finish & God will set up His rulership.

`And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 24)

`For there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

.............Times of Gentiles –> end, Gt trib................I............God`s kingdom....

 

Thus we would gather from that that the end of the times of the Gentile`s ruling is with great tribulation & then God`s kingdom comes.

Nothing in the words of Jesus or Revelation say that the "times of the Gentiles" will end with the Great Tribulation. You've just assumed it: the texts above say nor imply no such thing.

Revelation tells us that after the Great Multitude of Rev. 7 comes out of the Great Tribulation, that is only the start of the period of God's Wrath upon this world's rulers.

[Marilyn C]

58 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Nothing in the words of Jesus or Revelation say that the "times of the Gentiles" will end with the Great Tribulation. You've just assumed it: the texts above say nor imply no such thing.

Revelation tells us that after the Great Multitude of Rev. 7 comes out of the Great Tribulation, that is only the start of the period of God's Wrath upon this world's rulers.

Hi William,

Let`s see what our Lord says -

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, & the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,  the powers of the heavens will be shalen. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, & then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, & they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power & great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29)

That is just a few verses on from the `shortening.` When Jesus comes after the great tribulation, then NO Gentile will be ruling. The times of the Gentiles ruling the world will be finished.

Marilyn.

[Montana Marv]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Even using the 4th century AD Greek Septuagint version of Daniel, which shows more additions and textual changes to the Hebrew text (percentage-wise) than any other biblical book, you do not find the words "he will set up the Abomination of Desolation." This is pure Westcott-Hort/NIV revisionism.

Using the Hebrew text, you do not find the words "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 9:27 at all. This is a fraud foisted upon the Holy Scriptures, pure and simple, and I'm calling it for what it is.

 

Much of the Fraud is in your court.

Dan 12:11 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set, there will be 1,290 days.  Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.  An added 30 days and another 45 days added to the 1260 days.

Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken through the prophet Daniel.

Dan 9:27 - In the middle of the Seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.  A full week is 2520 days. 
The middle of the Week is 1260 days from the start of the week and 1260 days from the end of the week.  Jesus says there is something going on at that period of time.

So what is your point.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

On May 5, 2016 at 11:34 AM, WilliamL said:

40 days has been the standard biblical period of trial/tribulation and testing.

The pounding downpour and great upwelling of water in Noah's time lasted 40 days, and the Book of Jasher records that even in the ark they were in great distress, until it all ended.

At the beginning of the Exodus, 40 days marked the period of trial and testing of Israel, ending with the Amalekite attack upon them, after which they had rest.

Another 40 day-test of Israel came in the searching out the Holy Land by the 12 spies, and the peoples' response to their report.

Jesus, the Divine Human, underwent 40 days of trial at the beginning of his ministry.

Then later, after his resurrection, there came a concluding 40 days' testing of the faith of the disciples up to the time of his ascension.

In our time, a collapse of government, banking, the food distribution system and the electrical grid, coupled with chaos, war, and plague (the events of Seals 1-5), would cause near immediate tribulation for most people. Even those prepared might find it difficult to survive 40 days without either Divine or human (Church) assistance. Which may be why the Lord said, "unless those days were [i.e., will be] shortened, no flesh would be saved." Plus, Paul clearly stated in Hebrews 12:18-28 and elsewhere that the Church's coming to heavenly Mount Zion will mimic Israel's coming to earthly Mount Sinai. I suspect this will apply to the time period also.

So those are my reasons for a short Trib: not conclusive, but at least highly plausible if not likely.

Shalom, WilliamL.

Sorry, bro', but you went the wrong way. The aftermath of the Flood lasted for a whole YEAR! During the Exodus, they wandered in the desert for 40 YEARS! Look at the contextual clues about the "Tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21):

Matthew 24:4-31
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: humas eis thlipsin = "you into pressure"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation (Greek: estai gar tote thlipsis megalee = "shall-be for then pressure great"), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon = "Immediately but after the pressure of-the days those") shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Thus, this "pressure," this "thlipsis," this "tribulation," began in the FIRST Century and will continue until the Messiah returns! The point He made in verse 22 was that the actual number of DAYS when the "pressure" was on would be relatively few during the past two millennia. They would be few enough that names could be given to the periods of pressure, like "the Holocaust."

[WilliamL]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, & the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,  the powers of the heavens will be shalen. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, & then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, & they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power & great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29)

That is just a few verses on from the `shortening.` When Jesus comes after the great tribulation, then NO Gentile will be ruling. The times of the Gentiles ruling the world will be finished.

How you get that from this verse is beyond me.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

God could have let the antiChrist reign for ten years or  twenty years or thirty years but he hasn't because nobody would survive - that's why he has shortened it to three and a half years. That's exactly as I read it to mean when I first read it. I never thought it as being a mystery to solve or a puzzle to work out or a timespan to be calculated.

All this talk of Daniel's week this and trumpets that.... it's not necessary. You're all creating a debate from nothing.      posted by Oakwood

Sounds about right to me,,,,,,,,that is what I see,very simply,clear cut,done                                       Glory to God,Love-Kwik