Chaos - True or False?

[HAZARD]

42 minutes ago, Kan said:

The earth did not appear until the third day. "Let the dry appear" the word land is supplied. "The dry" is opposite to the wet - "the waters." "The dry" signifies matter. It was on this day that God called "the dry" "Earth," with a capital, not before that.

If you say that the earth existed before because it is introduced at the start of the chapter, that's like using the introduction of a book as it main content. Verses 1 and 2 introduce the topic, that's all. According to what God said, the earth dd not appear until the third day.

There is no water either before there was matter, because water is matter. What we understand as matter, the tangible to us, was done on the third day. Form was introduced on that day, before that the earth existed in blueprint only, it was without form and void, but ready to appear in the very elements God uses to make matter.

Matter is made of invisible things, not of the visible. This is proven in genesis, where God speaks the light and divides the waters before any matter appears. The light that we see, was made on the day after, the fourth day.

So before matter appears, God had already prepared everything for it to exist. But at that stage it was without form and void.

 

We learnt many things in school in my day by repetition. So I will post this again, read it with an open and honest heart asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. I know this from years of study and experience.

By our perseverance, the Holy Spirit will open a persons spirit to receive what he PREVIOUSLY was unable to receive.   

God, created a perfect earth the first time back in the dateless past. Hundreds of Scriptures prove this beyond doubt, all we need do is read them, let the sink in, and believe what we read.

 God is not the author of chaos or confusion, God does not create anything inferior, broken, ruined, flooded, and then fixes it as He goes along.

 

Blotting out the sun, and brining on floods are not acts of creation.

 

In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1:2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

 

God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care and time as the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures. In the work of the six days, it is stated that God formed with His hands each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13).

It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear that God FORMED all things with His hands. (God FORMED  both light and darkness (Isa. 45:7). He did not do this in the first day of Gen. 1:3-5, for at that time He merely divided them.

Therefore they must have been created and formed before the first day.

It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps. 8:3; 6; 90:2; 95:5); the heavens (Ps. 8:3; 19:1; 102:25; Isa. 40:12); the planets (Ps. 8:3; Isa. 40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov. 26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation of all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands He formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet. 3:3-9; Prov. 26:10).

By the creation of the material universe we mean the creation of the heavens and of the Earth, and all things originally created therein. The heavens were created first, then the Earth, as proved in Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7. The word "beginning," refers to the dateless past when there was as yet no material universe, or the heavens and the Earth could not be spoken of as being created or brought into existence at that time. There was as yet no day and night, and no time on the Earth or in heaven, fro they were not yet created. Whether there was day and night or times and seasons where God lived before that, is not stated, and all speculation is valueless as to proof of the fact one way or another.

The word created is from the Hebrew bara, meaning to create, to make new or bring into existence without the use of pre-existing material. This latter idea is certainly true of the materials out of which the heavens and the Earth were formed. In Heb. 11:3 we read that the "things which are seen [the visible things] were not made of things that do appear" or that were visible. If the heavens and the Earth were brought into existence, then it is certain that at one time they were not in existence. Bara is found forty nine times in the Hebrew Bible, and is translated create eight times, created thirty-three times, make four times; creator three times; and createth one time. The primary idea is to bring into existence something new, even if the something new is to be made out of already existing material. Perfection is generally implied, and is always implied when anything is a creation of God. Moses said, "His work is perfect" (Deut. 32:4, and David said, "His way is perfect" (2 Sam. 22:31). Solomon said that God "made everything beautiful in His time (Eccl. 3:11. In fact a perfect God would not make or create anything imperfect.

Bara is used only seven times in Gen. 1:1-24, the passage that records all the creative ages. It is correctly translated created in each case. In all the other verses of this passage the word made is used.It is from the Hebrew word asah, meaning to make something out of already existing material.

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God created a perfect Earth, then destroyed it and everything therein,  because of sin.\ and rebellion. Moses’ teaching on the overthrow of the Pre-Adamite world.
In Gen 1:2 we have the fact that the Earth was in existence before the Spirit of God began to move, (brood) upon the face of the waters which covered the Earth. The conjunction “and” is used to connect about 200 separate acts of God in Gen. 1 and 2. These acts are all equally independent and important. Verse 2 is as independent of verse 1 as are all other separate acts of God in these two chapters. In verse 1 we have the original creation of the heavens and the Earth, and in verse 2, we have the original perfect Earth made chaos and flooded with water which destroyed all lifeon the Earth.
The word “was” in verse 2 is from the Hebrew bayah, which is a verb to become, not the verb to be. It is translated became 67 times (Gen. 2:7; 19:26; 20:12; 24:67; Ex. 4:3-4; Num. 12:10; ect.); becamest (1 Chron. 17:22; Ezek. 16:8) ; came and  came to pass 505 times (Gen. 4:3; 6:1, 4; 11:2, 5; etc.) become 66 times (Gen. 3:22; 18:18; 48:19; etc.) come (and come to pass 131 times (Gen. 4:14; 6:13; 18-20; 27:40 etc.); and many times be in the sense of become (Gen. 1:3, 6, 9, 14: 3:5; etc.).
The phrase without form is from the Hebrew tohu, which means waste, desolation, or confusion. It is translated wast (Deut. 32:10); without form (Gen.1:2, Jer.4:23); vain (Isa. 45:18; 1 Sam. 12:21); confusion Isa. 24:10; 34:11; 41:29); empty (Job 26:7); vanity (Isa. 40:17, 23; 44:9; 59:4); nothing (Job. 6:18; Isa. 40:17); and wilderness (Job 12:24; Ps. 107:40).
It can be seen from these passages what the word really means and what the condition of the Earth was in Gen. 1:2. God did not originally create the Earth in such a waste and ruined state. It is definitely stated in Isa. 45:18 that God did not create the Earth tohu (vain, or desolate), yet in Gen 1:2 the Earth was tohu. If the Earth was not originally created desolate, then it must have been created, inhabited, and later became desolate. Even the English verb “was” proves that it had to become desolate before it could be desolate.
The Hebrew word for void is bohu, which means empty, ruin or void. It is translated viod (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23) and emptiness (Isa. 34:11). The Hebrew phrase tohu va bohu (wast and ruin, or desolate and empty) describes the chaotic conditions of the Earth since “the beginning” and before the six days of the reconstruction of Gen. 1:3-2:25. God did not create the Earth a ruin or a wast. It became so because of sin.
We can read Gen. 1:1-2 literally thus:
“In the beginning [by periods, ages] God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth became wast and ruin [desolate and empty]; and darkness was upon the face of the waters.” In these verses we have the whole span of the creative ages taking in all the original creation of the heavens and the Earth and all things therein to the six days of restoration of the Earth to a habitable state. The original creations include the sun, moon, and stars.
In these two verses alone we have the facts that in the dateless past God created the heavens, including the sun, moon, and stars, and then the Earth; that the heavens, were created before the Earth;  the waters; and that the darkness were all created before the spirit began to brood over the waters; and that these things were already in existence before the first of the six days, proving that they were not created in any one of those days.
How long the Earth was a waste and a ruin or desolate and empty since its original habitation is not known. How long it was in existence and inhabited before it became desolate and empty is not known, but why and when it was cursed and became desolate and empty is known and clearly revealed in Scripture. In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1;2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.
The fact that Moses by inspiration said that God told Adam, to multiply and replenish the Earth proves that there was a social system on the Earth before Adam, for he could not replenish something that had been plenished before. Some argue that the Hebrew word for replenish means fill and not refill, but this proves nothing. An examination of all the places where the word replenish is used disproves this. Suppose we make the word replenish mean plenish in Gen. 9:1; Isa. 2:6; 23:2; Jer. 31:25; Ezek. 26:2; 27:25, and note the results. Where the Hebrew word mala is translated fill, it does not mean that the thing referred to had never been filled before. For example, when Joseph commanded his bretheren to “fill their sacks,” does this mean that those sack had never been filled before? They had no doubt been filled many times. See Gen. 42:25; 44:1; 1 Kings 18:33; Hag. 2:7 etc. To say, “Fill that glass with water” does not prove that ithad never been filled before, but to say, “Refill that glass with water” proves that it had been filled before. When God said to Noah, “be fruitfull and multiply, and replenish the earth” Gen. 9:1, it is clear that the Earth had been plenished before, so why not believe that God meant the same thing when He said it to Adam? The same Hebrew statement is found in both passages (Gen. 1;28; 9:1),and it is translated exactly the same in English, so would it be wrong to believe that it means the same thing? If the Earth had been plenished before Adam, then it was overthrown by judgment before the six days, as is shown in Gen.1;2.

[Kan]

3 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

We learnt many things in school in my day by repetition. So I will post this again, read it with an open and honest heart asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. I know this from years of study and experience.

By our perseverance, the Holy Spirit will open a persons spirit to receive what he PREVIOUSLY was unable to receive.   

God, created a perfect earth the first time back in the dateless past. Hundreds of Scriptures prove this beyond doubt, all we need do is read them, let the sink in, and believe what we read.

 God is not the author of chaos or confusion, God does not create anything inferior, broken, ruined, flooded, and then fixes it as He goes along.

 

Blotting out the sun, and brining on floods are not acts of creation.

 

In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1:2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

 

God created and made the different parts of the material universe and each thing therein, using the same care and time as the six days when He restored the planet Earth to a habitable state and made a new order of Earth creatures. In the work of the six days, it is stated that God formed with His hands each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13).

It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear that God FORMED all things with His hands. (God FORMED  both light and darkness (Isa. 45:7). He did not do this in the first day of Gen. 1:3-5, for at that time He merely divided them.

Therefore they must have been created and formed before the first day.

It is also stated that God with His hands FORMED the Earth (Ps. 8:3; 6; 90:2; 95:5); the heavens (Ps. 8:3; 19:1; 102:25; Isa. 40:12); the planets (Ps. 8:3; Isa. 40:26; 45:12; 48:13; Heb. 1:10) and all things (Prov. 26:10). From a study of all these Scriptures and those on the creation of all things, it is clear that by the Word of God the materials were brought into existence, and then by His hands He formed the materials into the various parts of the universe. That is, God spoke, the materials came into existence and as fast as they materialized He used them to form all things with His hands (Ps. 8:3; 2 Pet. 3:3-9; Prov. 26:10).

By the creation of the material universe we mean the creation of the heavens and of the Earth, and all things originally created therein. The heavens were created first, then the Earth, as proved in Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7. The word "beginning," refers to the dateless past when there was as yet no material universe, or the heavens and the Earth could not be spoken of as being created or brought into existence at that time. There was as yet no day and night, and no time on the Earth or in heaven, fro they were not yet created. Whether there was day and night or times and seasons where God lived before that, is not stated, and all speculation is valueless as to proof of the fact one way or another.

The word created is from the Hebrew bara, meaning to create, to make new or bring into existence without the use of pre-existing material. This latter idea is certainly true of the materials out of which the heavens and the Earth were formed. In Heb. 11:3 we read that the "things which are seen [the visible things] were not made of things that do appear" or that were visible. If the heavens and the Earth were brought into existence, then it is certain that at one time they were not in existence. Bara is found forty nine times in the Hebrew Bible, and is translated create eight times, created thirty-three times, make four times; creator three times; and createth one time. The primary idea is to bring into existence something new, even if the something new is to be made out of already existing material. Perfection is generally implied, and is always implied when anything is a creation of God. Moses said, "His work is perfect" (Deut. 32:4, and David said, "His way is perfect" (2 Sam. 22:31). Solomon said that God "made everything beautiful in His time (Eccl. 3:11. In fact a perfect God would not make or create anything imperfect.

Bara is used only seven times in Gen. 1:1-24, the passage that records all the creative ages. It is correctly translated created in each case. In all the other verses of this passage the word made is used.It is from the Hebrew word asah, meaning to make something out of already existing material.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

God created a perfect Earth, then destroyed it and everything therein,  because of sin.\ and rebellion. Moses’ teaching on the overthrow of the Pre-Adamite world.
In Gen 1:2 we have the fact that the Earth was in existence before the Spirit of God began to move, (brood) upon the face of the waters which covered the Earth. The conjunction “and” is used to connect about 200 separate acts of God in Gen. 1 and 2. These acts are all equally independent and important. Verse 2 is as independent of verse 1 as are all other separate acts of God in these two chapters. In verse 1 we have the original creation of the heavens and the Earth, and in verse 2, we have the original perfect Earth made chaos and flooded with water which destroyed all lifeon the Earth.
The word “was” in verse 2 is from the Hebrew bayah, which is a verb to become, not the verb to be. It is translated became 67 times (Gen. 2:7; 19:26; 20:12; 24:67; Ex. 4:3-4; Num. 12:10; ect.); becamest (1 Chron. 17:22; Ezek. 16:8) ; came and  came to pass 505 times (Gen. 4:3; 6:1, 4; 11:2, 5; etc.) become 66 times (Gen. 3:22; 18:18; 48:19; etc.) come (and come to pass 131 times (Gen. 4:14; 6:13; 18-20; 27:40 etc.); and many times be in the sense of become (Gen. 1:3, 6, 9, 14: 3:5; etc.).
The phrase without form is from the Hebrew tohu, which means waste, desolation, or confusion. It is translated wast (Deut. 32:10); without form (Gen.1:2, Jer.4:23); vain (Isa. 45:18; 1 Sam. 12:21); confusion Isa. 24:10; 34:11; 41:29); empty (Job 26:7); vanity (Isa. 40:17, 23; 44:9; 59:4); nothing (Job. 6:18; Isa. 40:17); and wilderness (Job 12:24; Ps. 107:40).
It can be seen from these passages what the word really means and what the condition of the Earth was in Gen. 1:2. God did not originally create the Earth in such a waste and ruined state. It is definitely stated in Isa. 45:18 that God did not create the Earth tohu (vain, or desolate), yet in Gen 1:2 the Earth was tohu. If the Earth was not originally created desolate, then it must have been created, inhabited, and later became desolate. Even the English verb “was” proves that it had to become desolate before it could be desolate.
The Hebrew word for void is bohu, which means empty, ruin or void. It is translated viod (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23) and emptiness (Isa. 34:11). The Hebrew phrase tohu va bohu (wast and ruin, or desolate and empty) describes the chaotic conditions of the Earth since “the beginning” and before the six days of the reconstruction of Gen. 1:3-2:25. God did not create the Earth a ruin or a wast. It became so because of sin.
We can read Gen. 1:1-2 literally thus:
“In the beginning [by periods, ages] God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth became wast and ruin [desolate and empty]; and darkness was upon the face of the waters.” In these verses we have the whole span of the creative ages taking in all the original creation of the heavens and the Earth and all things therein to the six days of restoration of the Earth to a habitable state. The original creations include the sun, moon, and stars.
In these two verses alone we have the facts that in the dateless past God created the heavens, including the sun, moon, and stars, and then the Earth; that the heavens, were created before the Earth;  the waters; and that the darkness were all created before the spirit began to brood over the waters; and that these things were already in existence before the first of the six days, proving that they were not created in any one of those days.
How long the Earth was a waste and a ruin or desolate and empty since its original habitation is not known. How long it was in existence and inhabited before it became desolate and empty is not known, but why and when it was cursed and became desolate and empty is known and clearly revealed in Scripture. In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception. Why could not Gen. 1;2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.
The fact that Moses by inspiration said that God told Adam, to multiply and replenish the Earth proves that there was a social system on the Earth before Adam, for he could not replenish something that had been plenished before. Some argue that the Hebrew word for replenish means fill and not refill, but this proves nothing. An examination of all the places where the word replenish is used disproves this. Suppose we make the word replenish mean plenish in Gen. 9:1; Isa. 2:6; 23:2; Jer. 31:25; Ezek. 26:2; 27:25, and note the results. Where the Hebrew word mala is translated fill, it does not mean that the thing referred to had never been filled before. For example, when Joseph commanded his bretheren to “fill their sacks,” does this mean that those sack had never been filled before? They had no doubt been filled many times. See Gen. 42:25; 44:1; 1 Kings 18:33; Hag. 2:7 etc. To say, “Fill that glass with water” does not prove that ithad never been filled before, but to say, “Refill that glass with water” proves that it had been filled before. When God said to Noah, “be fruitfull and multiply, and replenish the earth” Gen. 9:1, it is clear that the Earth had been plenished before, so why not believe that God meant the same thing when He said it to Adam? The same Hebrew statement is found in both passages (Gen. 1;28; 9:1),and it is translated exactly the same in English, so would it be wrong to believe that it means the same thing? If the Earth had been plenished before Adam, then it was overthrown by judgment before the six days, as is shown in Gen.1;2.

So basically what you are saying in relation to the topic, is that chaos is the result of the devil mucking around on earth before man was created. Making chaos essentially evil.

Like others you refer to the darkness as a result of some kind of destruction, and call it evil and not of God. Perhaps not evil, but the result of judgement. Here again God is made the author of undesirable chaos.

The Bible equates the darkness with the waters and the deep, which are also found to be in outer space, as said in numerous places. So if the waters are chaos then God has chaos among the stars also, maybe the devil messed up there too. I don't think so. Garner Ted Armstrong would have agreed, he proposed that the devil made dents in the moon and caused a belt of asteroids. 

I would prefer that anyone who wants to talk about the beginning of creation, look up the word "waters" and see how it is used throughout scripture. Sometimes it refers to ordinary water other times to something else. The living waters is another term associated with the water that came out of the rock that Moses struck, and it refers to Jesus, the water of life as well.

In a couple of passages of the Bible, it says that God creates darkness. Once again if darkness is chaos then God created chaos. I cannot say that God creates evil, therefor I accept that the darkness and waters are creations with an intent, which I already happen to be aware of, but we cannot get off base until we accept that God has created invisible forces in nature which govern nature and are included in the creation of matter.

Jesus made all things BOTH visible and invisible. Either God talks about those things in the Bible or He does not. So creation is not just all tap water and dirt.

(The theories of the pre creation disasters, the earth being made for fallen angels and such things have never been taught by any of the patriarchs, prophets and kings, apostles or Christ, or Bible translators or founders of the reformation churches, or scholars world wide, or Professors of the English language or other languages, or Jewish scholars.

I doubt that any new thing which denies the old is true.

The way these forlorn men present scripture for their theory, is a bastardization of the English language, in comprehension, tone, the rules of grammar and every other possible way. I cannot say enough about it, there is so much error in the applications of scripture that I would have to write a whole thesis in reply.

If you decide to make a lengthy post of it again, you can understand why I can't respond to it, unless you can bring it down to its essence in a summary, which can be directly applied to the topic.)

 

 

[Kan]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

"In the beginning God created the heaven (FIRST), and the earth (SECOND).

Heaven, sun moon stars and with them comes light. Then He created the earth., dry land. It was flooded by God after Lucifer convinced the society he ruled, plus one third of God's angels to rebel and they tried to invade Heaven. and toss God off His throne. I have given all the Scriptures regarding this in previous posts on other threads.

Blotting out the sun, and brining on floods are not acts of creation.

 

Here is further proof, God does not create chaos, ruin, or floods, God sends floods as a judgment.

In Scripture all cases of obscuring the sun and bringing consequent darkness, and all cases of floods are a result of Judgment and never of an acts of creation, unless it be Gen. 1:2; and we have no authority on which to believe that this is an exception.

 

Why could not Gen. 1:2 be a result of a curse, as is clear of all other floods and darkness on the Earth, as revealed in Gen. 6-8; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; 13:10; Jer. 4:23-26; Amos 5:18-20; Zeph. 1:15; Joel 2:30-3: 16; Matt. 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.

 

Answer, Only If We don't believe God's Word and believe our own thoughts and ideas, and what our adversary would like us to believe.

God created the sun, moon and planets after He created the earth. 

The first verse is a title or theme of the following verses, just like the second chapter goes onto more detail.

Did you know that there are people who teach that the second chapter of Genesis is a second creation? They come from the same class of people who made up the theory of a pre creation world.

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎20‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 1:18 AM, Kan said:

That is precisely where I was headed in the questions - that chaos breaks up a set path, like that of Babel. A perfect example. The people were of one accord and built a tower. They were on a one way track to destruction and idolatry. So God scattered them abroad. From that scattering (chaos) came the different and interesting cultures, rather than just the single obsession about building an idolatrous tower.

BTW, an interesting statement in bold. What do you mean by a casual relationship?

So is chaos a platform for absolutely anything to occur? 

Here is a more difficult question (I guess) does perfect chaos have energy?

 CAUSAL ,  Kan ,  not Casual  .

[enoob57]

The whole of reason for me here:
The error lies in the conceptional  analysis of chaos itself- for chaos to be of God~ means God does not have Sovereign control and is verifiably false
due to the concept of disorder without reason! You being in finite begin are demanding to recognize patterns in infinite setting.... which if you think
about it is quite absurd to what the Bible reveals about God  

[other one]

chaos happens when God removes his guiding hand.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Kan,,,,

    Thank you,yes I do like to reply with more condensed,to the point answers,,,,,I'm glad you appreciate it,,,many people prefer the longer more elaborate responses but that is just not me,,,,,,so again ,thank you ,,,,,& may I ask what you mean by"You're only "intimidated" if you are bright",,,,,,is that implying I'm not so bright,kinda in a fog?-lol   Just kidding ,I think I do know what you mean but I couldn't resist ,,,,,,

    I'm really enjoying your discussion & I do appreciate that you talk so openly about the things you consider,I find it a very relaxed & pleasurable atmosphere and it is nice to talk with you ,,,,,the more I read your posts the more I like getting to know you Brother ,,,,you put a lot of thought,time,study(prayer) & consideration towards this Topic,,,,,,,perhaps I'm biased because I tend to agree with most of what you are saying,,,,,as I stated previously.............it's truly a good Thread ,you contribute much to this ministry & the Body of Christ,Praise Jesus!

    Kan,I don't attribute "darkness" to the devil(same as you),,,,he does not 'create" anything ,,,he is the father of lies & the author of confusion

Quote

1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)

³³ For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I mean if God is NOT the author of confusion then someone else is,right? I believe the devil took full advantage,the opportunist that he is & made full use of the darkness to bring about confusion,deception,chaos,havoc etc,,.,,,,,,causing effects were he could remain hidden,,,,,,you gave a great analogy with the furniture,,,,,,imagine yourself in your bedroom when the lights go out,there is no chaos because you know where everything is but now if someone were to sneak in & move all the furniture around you would be walking into everything in the room,,,,so,the darkness itself is not evil at all  but what happens (what is not seen)can be a real mess

Quote

For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
                                                                                                                                           Luke 8:17

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Job 12:22 (NIV) He reveals the deep things of darkness and brings deep shadows into the light.

Job 28:11 (NIV) [God] ... brings hidden things to light.

Dan 2:22 (NIV) He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him.

1 Cor 4:5b (Phi) He will bring into the light of day all that at present is hidden in darkness, and he will expose the secret motives of men's hea

John 12:35 (NIV) Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.

1 Jn 2:9-11 (Phi) Anyone who claims to be "in the light" and hates his brother is, in fact, still in complete darkness. The man who loves his brother lives in the light and has no reason to stumble. But the man who hates his brother is shut off from the light and gropes his way in the dark without knowing where he is going. For darkness has made him blind.

Anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I don't believe "darkness" IS EVIL,,,,,,,I)'m sure you see what I am saying                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

[RustyAngeL]

I don't try and over analyze things.  I believe wherever God is NOT there is room for chaos.  Chaos is the absents of peace, and order. Where the presence of the Lord is there is peace and order.  Maybe a little simple but that the way I have always looked at it. 

[HAZARD]

15 hours ago, Kan said:

So basically what you are saying in relation to the topic, is that chaos is the result of the devil mucking around on earth before man was created. Making chaos essentially evil.

If you decide to make a lengthy post of it again, you can understand why I can't respond to it, unless you can bring it down to its essence in a summary, which can be directly applied to the topic.)

 

 

 

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"So basically what you are saying in relation to the topic, is that chaos is the result of the devil mucking around on earth before man was created. Making chaos essentially evil."

"The first verse is a title or theme of the following verses, just like the second chapter goes onto more detail." So where are the 66 titles for all the other chapters in the Bible?

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No, the devil was not mucking around on the Earth, The Devil, then Lucifer, was ruler on Earth and he decided to invade heaven and dethrone God.

Scriptures clearly show that originally, Long before Adam and Eve were created, God created the Earth and placed Lucifer as ruler of the society there.

God gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before "Iniquity was found in him. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).
 

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.
God is taking about Lucifer in these Scriptures. He was a perfect created angelic arc angel; "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God's angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself. (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

God destroyed the earth in His anger. GOD CREATED THE EARTH AND THE HEAVEN IN GEN.1:1, THEN GOD DESTROYED THE EARTH IN GENESIS 1:2..

 

Jeremiah 4:23-28, “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.”

 

This was not Noah's flood as many teach. There were men, animals, birds, sun, moon stars which all remained during Noah's flood.

 

Could the Bible be any clearer that God in His anger made the earth without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep? The cities were inhabited by angels. Man had not been created yet. Argue as one may, these Scriptures plainly evidence why the earth was without form and void in Genesis 1:1.

In fact, Jeremiah 4:23 even repeats the exact phrase word-for-word. These Scriptures cannot be ignored if one is to be an honest Bible student.

 

Carefully notice that Lucifer dwelt upon the earth prior to his rebellion. Isaiah 14:13-14; 13, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: V. 14,  will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”  

 

Lucifer's sin was wanting EQUALITY with God. This is the same sin of feminists today, who want to be EQUAL with male authority in marriage, home, church and society. God has ordained masculine authority in the humanity. Women are equal in worth, intelligence and importance to God; but the man is to lead, not the woman.

 

When Lucifer sinned, he wasn't immediately punished by God. We know that Lucifer wasn't banned from Heaven because Satan appears before God in Job 1:6-7.

Satan will be judged, convicted and punished at The Great White Throne Of Judgment with the rest of the wicked (Revelation 20:11-15). Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna - Hell) forever to burn and be tormented night and day without rest. 2nd Peter 2:4 also tells us that the angels bound in Hell are RESERVED unto judgment. So neither the Devil nor the demons have been punished yet for their wickedness.

Those who believe in a Young Earth vehemently reject the idea that there's a Gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2; but as you've just read, God destroyed the cities of the earth and made the land desolate. Light ceased to shine (the sun, moon and stars were blocked out by God). The mountains trembled and moved. The earth had been a fruitful wilderness where dinosaurs and prehistoric birds and mammals lived.

 

 

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"If you decide to make a lengthy post of it again, you can understand why I can't respond to it, unless you can bring it down to its essence in a summary, which can be directly applied to the topic"

.

 

The Bible is a very lengthy book to read, even lengthier to seriously study and consume mentally and spiritually. I cannot and will not apologise for that! I try and give as many, if not all the scriptures on any doctrine being discussed and that cannot be done in one or two lines. This is much harder to do and takes up much more time than the usual, "Your wrong, your a heretic, your teaching false a religion, your in error!

 

 

[Kan]

19 hours ago, Thallasa said:

 CAUSAL ,  Kan ,  not Casual  .

Lol, yes I missed that

19 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The whole of reason for me here:
The error lies in the conceptional  analysis of chaos itself- for chaos to be of God~ means God does not have Sovereign control and is verifiably false
due to the concept of disorder without reason! You being in finite begin are demanding to recognize patterns in infinite setting.... which if you think
about it is quite absurd to what the Bible reveals about God  

I can cause chaos, and be in full control, so why not God? Who even claims that He does it on occasions, to break up confederacies against truth.

But there is a physical reason for producing a state of randomness prior to creation, random as it would seem to us, but not to God.