Chaos - True or False?

[Kan]

We hear of order created out of chaos in Christian teachings and in ancient pagan myths about creation.

Evolution also seems to support the idea of sophistication, complexity and functionality coming from an explosion - the big bang.

Does the Bible infer chaos at the beginning of creation?

 

Note that the scientific meaning of "chaos" is different than the common usage. We'll use the term chaos in its common setting.

Scientific meaning; non linear dynamics, randomness with a predictable pattern.

Common meaning; disorder and confusion.

[St_Worm2]

Hi Kan, our Mormon friends refer to God as an "organizer" rather than a "creator" because they believe that EVERYTHING is eternal (matter, energy, time, space, and even our souls), just like God is. So for them, the one they refer to as "God" organized/shaped the PRE-existing chaos into everything that we see around us today.

Christianity on the other hand believes in something called, Creatio Ex Nihilo, or creation "out of nothing". We believe that God is our "Creator", not simply an "Organizer", because He spoke into being that which did not exist, IOW, space/time itself (i.e. Genesis 1:1; Genesis 2:4; Isaiah 42:5; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 11:3; 2 Peter 3:5....).

The Bible also speaks of God giving form or shape to things, and the Big Bang could certainly be argued from a number of passages such as Isaiah 42:5 which tells us that God .. "created the heavens and stretched them out."

So, does the Bible infer chaos at the beginning of creation? Possibly, because God seems to be credited with giving shape to that which He brought into existence, but we certainly do not see Him as the "organizer" that the LDS do. Again, Christianity refers to Him as our "Creator" or "Maker".

Yours and His,
David

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by St_Worm2

[post]

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
(Genesis 1:2) 

I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty. I looked to the heavens, and their light was gone. 
(Jeremiah 4:23) 

this word, translated in English as "formless" is tohu (( תֹּ֫הוּ )), Strong's 8414. 

a literal definition of the word includes "chaos" -- also "waste, desolation" and "confusion" 
it forms the base stem for other words which mean "vanity" and "meaninglessness" 

so .. 

yes, i think - for we also read plainly that what is visible was made out of what is not visible, and what is now in the light was formed in darkness. 
one may object that "He is not a God of confusion" -- which is absolutely true, but the implication is that out of perceived disorder He brings and reveals order.

mathematically and physically speaking, after all, "chaos" is used to describe things which don't necessarily have no order at all but that they have an order which is so subtle or complex that it is not readily understood by human comprehension. this is the definition of the word i accept ((maybe not what you do, so perhaps we're not even talking about the same thing -- in which case, please entertain my view for a moment)). even the most godless of cosmologists are forced by observation to concede that the universe has been formed 'just so' in an unfathomably delicate balance. 

our God is one who could indeed without any difficulty design an explosion in a print factory (('chaotic' to human understanding)) in such a way that the result is all of Shakespeare's works appearance in chronological sequence and the unabridged dictionary to be laid out, bound in alphabetical order -- which event is comparable to the way that secular science has by observation determined the universe appears to have arrived at its present state: either a completely miraculous series of improbabilities, or a Creator & Designer whose understanding and ways are immeasurably beyond human reach!

 

[post]

we may walk into a teenagers room and think "this is a chaotic mess!" 

but it is not the case - and we don't even mean by saying so - that the location and state of every object in the room has no cause or cannot be explained by any physical series of actions and motions. every pile of clothes, books and toys that was dropped or tossed in one corner or the other was done so by an active force, even if in the case of the teenager it was without thought, and if we had perfect mechanical knowledge of the momenta and spatial coordinates involved, all could be predicted ((with the only argument being the persnickety quantum-level state of sub-particles -- though this too, with "perfect knowledge" would i think, perhaps turn out to be deterministic. there is really no philosophical or scientific cause to believe that QM is the end-all of knowledge and substance of the universe; measurablilty, perhaps, ultimate truth, questionable)). 

so in "common use" the word 'chaos' is deceptive -- it is a subjective description, not an objective reality. 
i believe too, in cosmology and also in our own lives -- the word is used more often subjectively. even mathematically, "randomness" follows probability distributions with rules of description; there are many mathematical types of "randomness" and prediction ((within margins, with % accuracy)) is always possible. 

                                    "see here how everything lead up to this day" 
                                                   -- Jerry Garcia

don't we also believe of our experiential lives, that though they appear by one description, "chaotic" they have been, by a deeper understanding, guided by the hand of God, to form us into who we are, by His perfect will? and He continues to complete the work He began! 

let's not lose faith because our own understanding is small -- but "lean not" on it, instead trusting Him whose ways and thoughts are higher than our own 

[post]

"as through a glass, darkly" 

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, post said:

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
(Genesis 1:2) 

I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty. I looked to the heavens, and their light was gone. 
(Jeremiah 4:23) 

this word, translated in English as "formless" is tohu (( תֹּ֫הוּ )), Strong's 8414. 

a literal definition of the word includes "chaos" -- also "waste, desolation" and "confusion" 
it forms the base stem for other words which mean "vanity" and "meaninglessness" 

so .. 

yes, i think - for we also read plainly that what is visible was made out of what is not visible, and what is now in the light was formed in darkness. 
one may object that "He is not a God of confusion" -- which is absolutely true, but the implication is that out of perceived disorder He brings and reveals order.

mathematically and physically speaking, after all, "chaos" is used to describe things which don't necessarily have no order at all but that they have an order which is so subtle or complex that it is not readily understood by human comprehension. this is the definition of the word i accept ((maybe not what you do, so perhaps we're not even talking about the same thing -- in which case, please entertain my view for a moment)). even the most godless of cosmologists are forced by observation to concede that the universe has been formed 'just so' in an unfathomably delicate balance. 

our God is one who could indeed without any difficulty design an explosion in a print factory (('chaotic' to human understanding)) in such a way that the result is all of Shakespeare's works appearance in chronological sequence and the unabridged dictionary to be laid out, bound in alphabetical order -- which event is comparable to the way that secular science has by observation determined the universe appears to have arrived at its present state: either a completely miraculous series of improbabilities, or a Creator & Designer whose understanding and ways are immeasurably beyond human reach!

 

 

To get the whole picture of what is being taught in Jeremiah 4:23, one must also quote verses 24, 25, and 26.

Jeremiah 4:23, I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
V. 24, I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
V. 25, I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
V. 26, I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

That's not Noah's flood for there was man and animals, birds, alive on the arc, and the sun, moon and stars were not affected by Noahs flood, so what flood was it? It was the flood God placed over the Earth, then He turned off the light, all after he destroyed it because of Lucifers rebellion.

 

When God first created the heavens and the Earth, "In the beginning," Gen. 1:1, it was not "formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep." It became that way because of Lucifers rebellion and invasion into Heaven in his attempt to dethrone God.

God destroyed the Earth and covered it with water for an unknown time and then some 6,000 years ago, renewed the heaven and the Earth to a habitable state before creating Adam and Eve.

2 Peter 3:3, 

V. 3, knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
V. 4, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
V. 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing1 out of the water and in the water:
V. 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
V. 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Even men today, building anything, would they build a car this way? design and make a complete smashed up, no wheels, no headlights, torn to shred's seats, a complete right-off, then do it right, rebuild it properly?

How about building a huge ship, like the Titanic. Beginning at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean, two and one half miles deep, with rusted out pieces of wrecked junk, somehow raise them up and place them on a slipway, to eventually be fully repaired and ready to launch?

Is that how God does things?

[post]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Even men today, building anything, would they build a car this way? design and make a complete smashed up, no wheels, no headlights, torn to shred's seats, a complete right-off, then do it right, rebuild it properly?

isn't your metaphor a bit off though? 
when we build a car, we don't start with torn up pieces of what-was-once-car. 

we start with raw materials -- rocks that have iron ore in them that need to be extracted and mixed and treated to become steel. then the steel is melted and poured into molds and worked to become the components of a chassis etc. 
and oil from the bottom of the ocean and under the deserts that needs to be extracted and processed extensively to be refined into plastics. then from these raw plastics, treated and formed into very specific shapes to become parts of the body and accessories. 
same with the glass. and the rubber. and the cloth. and the chemicals that make up every other part of the car. 

all these things start in a relatively chaotic, un-ordered state - locked up inside the belly of the earth in oil shale and iron-rich rocks, or as silicates in sand. or, if they are recycled materials, they are taken from highly ordered state, back into disordered states by melting them down and reforming them. then they go through long, deliberate processes establishing order and precise design, before they are finally fitted together and waste materials trimmed off. 

by the way lol no, this doesn't violate 2nd law of thermo. a lot of waste heat and slag is generated through all this processing. so entropy doesn't decrease.

none of these things are "truly chaos" in nature though -- only comparatively so, and only because their deliberate order is beyond human comprehension. to the Lord, what men call 'chaos' He understands perfectly. think of all the events that led up to Mary & Joseph having Jesus in Bethlehem, and then going to Egypt with Him as a babe. in human, earthly terms, utter chaos and random happenstance, right? but God carefully orchestrated all of this so that prophecy would be fulfilled, and as a sign to us with deep significance. 

"chaos" is subjective, friend. 

 

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, post said:

isn't your metaphor a bit off though? 
when we build a car, we don't start with torn up pieces of what-was-once-car. 

we start with raw materials -- rocks that have iron ore in them that need to be extracted and mixed and treated to become steel. then the steel is melted and poured into molds and worked to become the components of a chassis etc. 
and oil from the bottom of the ocean and under the deserts that needs to be extracted and processed extensively to be refined into plastics. then from these raw plastics, treated and formed into very specific shapes to become parts of the body and accessories. 
same with the glass. and the rubber. and the cloth. and the chemicals that make up every other part of the car. 

all these things start in a relatively chaotic, un-ordered state - locked up inside the belly of the earth in oil shale and iron-rich rocks, or as silicates in sand. or, if they are recycled materials, they are taken from highly ordered state, back into disordered states by melting them down and reforming them. then they go through long, deliberate processes establishing order and precise design, before they are finally fitted together and waste materials trimmed off. 

by the way lol no, this doesn't violate 2nd law of thermo. a lot of waste heat and slag is generated through all this processing. so entropy doesn't decrease.

none of these things are "truly chaos" in nature though -- only comparatively so, and only because their deliberate order is beyond human comprehension. to the Lord, what men call 'chaos' He understands perfectly. think of all the events that led up to Mary & Joseph having Jesus in Bethlehem, and then going to Egypt with Him as a babe. in human, earthly terms, utter chaos and random happenstance, right? but God carefully orchestrated all of this so that prophecy would be fulfilled, and as a sign to us with deep significance. 

"chaos" is subjective, friend. 

 

"Chaos" may be subjective, but God is not the author of confusion, and or even chaos.

1 Cor. 14:1, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I'm reminding people who believe God created an original perfect earth, Gen. 1:1, that was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep Gen. 1:2. God does not create anything that is without form, and void and flooded.

Its like saying, "God said, let us make man in our image and in our likeness." So, God created Adam.

The next verse, And Adam was without legs, eyes, no nose, no arms, and Adam could see no light because Adam was blind. 

Then God said, let there be legs, and God saw that that was good. Then God said, let there be a nose, arms, and God saw that was good.

Then God said, let Adam have sight, and God saw that that was very good!

That's not how God works. God created the heavens and the earth, "in the beginning," to be inhabited.

Isa 45:18, For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God did not originally create it without form, and void; and in darkness, and flooded, Gen. 1:2, No one can live on the earth in that state. God destroyed the original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and then God restored it to a habitable state for man Gen. 1:3. Anyone who believe this does not know God and how God works.

[post]

8 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Its like saying, "God said, let us make man in our image and in our likeness." So, God created Adam.

The next verse, And Adam was without legs, eyes, no nose, no arms, and Adam could see no light because Adam was blind. 

Then God said, let there be legs, and God saw that that was good. Then God said, let there be a nose, arms, and God saw that was good.

Then God said, let Adam have sight, and God saw that that was very good!

God first created dust, and then out of the dust He formed the man. 

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
(Genesis 2:7) 

dust is found in heaps, clouds and piles, by human description, chaotically arranged. but the Lord knows the precise location of every speck of dust in this universe - just as He knows the hairs on every human head - whether they are neatly brushed or in disarray. 

i understand your objection, because you are honoring God - and that is beautiful man! - but i am convinced that it is subjective, because we are thinking as men, who cannot fathom His perfect understanding and design. 
and we're both speaking without knowledge - we were not there, just as Job was not there - you are saying "it must be thus!" and i am saying "nay, it is not by necessity so!" -- hopefully we're not "darkening counsel" haha 
but we can instead both seek to express His glory with our opinions!

Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
(Job 38:2)

[post]

15 hours ago, HAZARD said:

How about building a huge ship, like the Titanic. Beginning at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean, two and one half miles deep, with rusted out pieces of wrecked junk, somehow raise them up and place them on a slipway, to eventually be fully repaired and ready to launch?

Is that how God does things?

of myself, i know that this broken-down, desolate and confused human being, the Lord in His mercy has redeemed and sanctified, & is building up into a perfect newness of life in Christ Jesus! 

hallelujah! is this not how He saves each of us?