The problem with sacraments

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Joline said:

Look, I never said the Rabbis held their religious rituals as sacraments. Because I know they deny that. I spoke of the history of their oral torah. Which is the Pharisees. Vespasian Established the rule of one sect of Judaism in the Empire, just as some claim with Constantine concerning Christianity. The roman Emperors established the religious authorities of the religions legalized in the Empire. That was the way it was.....But Vespasian chose one sect to rule over Jew's and Judaism.

You think I have a problem with lining up history? I really am growing tired of your problem with reading comprehension with my posts.

Sacramentalism is that which one engages a ritual unto a benefit to sanctify. Which Catholicism places as grace or graces. They are all seen as by Gods grace.

Judaism holds the same. They are sanctified by the Commandments, It is a form of sacramentalism, from circumcision to death. I am done here. You on the other hand want to take the distinctions and make them a difference , it is not. It is form, a form a type of sacramentalism.

Fare well

You obviously have a problem with history because Vespasian did not establish the Sanhedrin.   And the Sanhedrin is not a "sect."   Vespasian allowed the Jews to revive the Sanhedrin , but that was short lived.

Yeah, you have a problem with lining up history.   And the one with comprehension (as well as basic intelligence) is you.   You don't know squat about Judaism.   You keep trying to impose your ignorance and illiteracy upon Judaism and you don't know what you're talking about.   Judaism has no concept of sacramentalism and trying to impose that on them through your ignorance-based posts and sloppy theology isn't going to change that.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

youu obviously have a problem with history because Vespasian did not establish the Sanhedrin.   And the Sanhedrin is not a "sect."   Vespasian allowed the Jews to revive the Sanhedrin , but that was short lived.

Yeah, you have a problem with lining up history.   And the one with comprehension (as well as basic intelligence) is you.   You don't know squat about Judaism.   You keep trying to impose your ignorance and illiteracy upon Judaism and you don't know what you're talking about.   Judaism has no concept of sacramentalism and trying to impose that on them through your ignorance-based posts and sloppy theology isn't going to change that.

It was not a revived Sanhedrin. The Levitical priest stood as the chief justice of the Sanhedrin, as the law commands. The Pharisees usurped their authority through Vespasian.  Prior to that, the Pharisees could not impose legally any of their traditions as law. As Judges in the seat of Moses they had to have unanimous consent with the priesthood, namely the high priest, which were sadducees. So nothing that came out of the great Sanhedrin was sectarian, but by consent of both sects to be law.  That's the difference Shiloh. It is from Yavneh they placed their oral traditions as law -- oral law. Now that was by the authority of which ever ruler gave it to them, which in this case, was Vespasian

As for Sacramentalism, just read the doctrine of divine invitation in Messianic Judasim. Gentiles having various categories according to OBSERVANCE. That is where this is and where it began. As Messianics say many of the same prayers for their synagogues. Gentiles become Sanctified by following levels of halakah. That is where it is found......................the classification of Gentiles.

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, Joline said:

It was not a revived Sanhedrin. The Levitical priest stood as the chief justice of the Sanhedrin, as the law commands. The Pharisees usurped their authority through Vespasian.  Prior to that, the Pharisees could not impose legally any of their traditions as law. As Judges in the seat of Moses they had to have unanimous consent with the priesthood, namely the high priest, which were sadducees. So nothing that came out of the great Sanhedrin was sectarian, but by consent of both sects to be law.  That's the difference Shiloh. It is from Yavneh they placed their oral traditions as law -- oral law. Now that was by the authority of which ever ruler gave it to them, which in this case, was Vespasian

Levitical priesthood didn't exist in the 2nd century.   The Sadducees were Roman appointed puppets and liberal  aristocrats who served as the "priests"  but they were not the legitimate priesthood.    And yes, since the Sanhedrin fell out of existence, its re-emergence would be a revival.    Yes, I understand what happened at Yavneh with Yochanan Ben Zakkai and all of that.   The point is that the Vespasian didn't do it.  He authorized the revival of the Sanhedrin, but he did not establish it as you claim. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Levitical priesthood didn't exist in the 2nd century.   The Sadducees were Roman appointed puppets and liberal  aristocrats who served as the "priests"  but they were not the legitimate priesthood.    And yes, since the Sanhedrin fell out of existence, its re-emergence would be a revival.    Yes, I understand what happened at Yavneh with Yochanan Ben Zakkai and all of that.   The point is that the Vespasian didn't do it.  He authorized the revival of the Sanhedrin, but he did not establish it as you claim. 

What are you talking about? Yavneh was given just after the destruction of the temple.

The Sadducees were the priesthood for the most part. Paul acknowledges them as such, as well as Christ. Paul even secured letters of the high priest to go around and persecute and imprison those found in the synagogues which followed Christ.

and the rulers of the new Sanhedrin at yavneh were also appointed by Romans

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Qnts,,,,

   Hey Sis,hope you had a great time,glad you are back(missed ya),,,,,,

Quote

If you are saying Jews for Jesus is a denomination, that would not be correct. But, then again, Messianic Judaism is not a denomination.

Jews for Jesus is a missionary board.

No,that is not what I meant at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is why I pretty much stay out of these discussions,,,,My goodness if you compare something or use a wrong ,,or not precise term ,,,,,everyone jumps down your throat,,,,,,I was saying I am not in favor of "categorizing" & call it what you will,whatever ,,,,but just as there are many branches of 'Christianity",,,(according to the world or churches etc,,,) so are there in "Messianic Judaism" which doesn't make se4nse to begin with,,,it is a total contradiction,,,,,imo,like an oxymoron   ,,,,,but whatever,it is not very important,it is only my opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

   This was a Thread about "saccraments" that is why I joined in not to hear all about who knows more about judaism,,,,,,,Be Blessed,see you on the boards                                             Love,Kwik

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Qnts,,,,

   Hey Sis,hope you had a great time,glad you are back(missed ya),,,,,,

No,that is not what I meant at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is why I pretty much stay out of these discussions,,,,My goodness if you compare something or use a wrong ,,or not precise term ,,,,,everyone jumps down your throat,,,,,,I was saying I am not in favor of "categorizing" & call it what you will,whatever ,,,,but just as there are many branches of 'Christianity",,,(according to the world or churches etc,,,) so are there in "Messianic Judaism" which doesn't make se4nse to begin with,,,it is a total contradiction,,,,,imo,like an oxymoron   ,,,,,but whatever,it is not very important,it is only my opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

   This was a Thread about "saccraments" that is why I joined in not to hear all about who knows more about judaism,,,,,,,Be Blessed,see you on the boards                                             Love,Kwik

Yep, that's what they always seem to muddy the discussion with. Get things off point. I was drawing specific paralells between Messianic Judaism and it's doctrines concerning Gentiles.... And the prayers which identify what is what.

[Qnts2]

45 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Qnts,,,,

   Hey Sis,hope you had a great time,glad you are back(missed ya),,,,,,

No,that is not what I meant at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is why I pretty much stay out of these discussions,,,,My goodness if you compare something or use a wrong ,,or not precise term ,,,,,everyone jumps down your throat,,,,,,I was saying I am not in favor of "categorizing" & call it what you will,whatever ,,,,but just as there are many branches of 'Christianity",,,(according to the world or churches etc,,,) so are there in "Messianic Judaism" which doesn't make se4nse to begin with,,,it is a total contradiction,,,,,imo,like an oxymoron   ,,,,,but whatever,it is not very important,it is only my opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

   This was a Thread about "saccraments" that is why I joined in not to hear all about who knows more about judaism,,,,,,,Be Blessed,see you on the boards                                             Love,Kwik

Just to let you know. I wasn't trying to 'jump down your throat'. I was just trying to clarify what Jews for Jesus is.

I would not say Messianic Judaism has many differing branches.

I typically would not participate in a discussion about sacraments. Messianic Judaism is not sacramental. Just as Judaism is not sacramental. I believe that Jesus did all of the work, and no sacraments are needed for salvation. 

In contrast, in the council of Trent, concerning sacraments, I'll list two of the decrees:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT7.HTM

Canon 1. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven, namely, baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, extreme unction, order and matrimony,[1] or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.

[Ezra]

14 hours ago, Joline said:

Actually all Judaism believed sacramentalism. Judaism was sacramental as it was Levitical therefore sacerdotal.

As already pointed out by others this is incorrect. When something is incorrect, it should be dropped.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Just to let you know. I wasn't trying to 'jump down your throat'. I was just trying to clarify what Jews for Jesus is.

I would not say Messianic Judaism has many differing branches.

I typically would not participate in a discussion about sacraments. Messianic Judaism is not sacramental. Just as Judaism is not sacramental. I believe that Jesus did all of the work, and no sacraments are needed for salvation. 

In contrast, in the council of Trent, concerning sacraments, I'll list two of the decrees:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT7.HTM

Canon 1. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven, namely, baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, extreme unction, order and matrimony,[1] or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.

Again, we are talking about forms.

See that under Canon 4 to obtain the grace of justification. And through faith alone.....

These rituals are to obtain things from God by grace. Without Gods grace to justify. It is a means of receiving from God those things all Christians agree are necessary for salvation, which they participate by faith. That is the protestant mantra, we do not need to perform these rituals to gain these things That is all that is saying.

so it is not unlike the principal with which  Gentiles are placed with regards to their participation with rabbinic Jewish ritual in a Messianic congregation

categories which Gentiles are placed as righteous, and sanctified are based upon their level of halakah observance because they are drawn to messianic Judaism

 

[Ezra]

14 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Messianic Judaism is not sacramental. Just as Judaism is not sacramental.

Exactly.