chat with a catholic

[IreneM]

first question

ok so if sin removes (if we repent ) not good at explaing some times

anyway so if it removes HE forgives and forgets so why the need for pergatory if forgiven forgtten no more need to suffer for them after death

Will state that a nun once humilated me in front of the intire class over this issue because I refused to accept blindly this doctrine it makes no sense to me so am trying to understand and hopefully am a bit older and wiser now and better able to comprehend but that does not seem to be the case.........

venial sin mortal sin ??

the difference ???

second

I believe that if a child dies before the age of accountabilty they are in heaven I think what that age is depends on the child some know right from wrong and the consiquenses early some do not

if not baptised the Lord does not hold them accountable for that they must know what the baptisem is and understand it before they can be accountable for it

in my opinion

The bible does say repent and be baptised so for me that is the issue I guess.

a biaby can not repent does not even know what that means so the baptism means nothing if they do not understand it ...... am i makeing sense here???

In Christ

IreneM

[Arthur Durnan]

Dear Irene: All sin is SIN - against Almighty God. Forget the "venal" or "mortal" bit....sin IS SIN plain & plumb. It constitutes "missing the mark" and transgressing against divine principles enunciated by the Lord. It's not too difficult to see.

As for baptism, baptism constitutes only WATER which cannot cleanse the SOUL. Only the BLOOD of Jesus Christ can cleanse sinful hearts. Our everlasting salvation does not depend on what a church says, but rather only on what JESUS CHRIST, the HEAD of the Christian Church has already stated in His Holy Word, the Bible.

God richly bless you in your walk!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Katholish]

Irene,

venial sin

Edited March 1, 2005 by Katholish

[Arthur Durnan]

Thanx for youir good posting. In reply, I would remind you that the Holy bible states quite succinctly that "the soul that SINNETH shall surely die." Only ONE sin will do it because God is a throice-holy God and sin cannot enter God's heaven. All sin therefore - whether less or more so - must be forgiven the perpetrator cleansed by the power of Jesus' shed blood. Nothing other & nothing less will suffice. So the big query before us is NOT what TYPE of sin I have committed, but have I come to Jesus Christ ans asked for forgiveness through His shed blood for me on the cross?

"The wages of SIN is death, but the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD."

Have a great day!

http;//arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Shane]

Venial sin is less serious sin, that while it is an offense against God, it is not so serious as to constitute a rejection.

Examples:

Murder - Mortal Sin

Adultery - Mortal Sin

Stealing five dollars out of a friends wallet - Venial Sin

Stealing $1 million dollars - Mortal sin

Wasting time watching TV when you should have been doing chores - Venial Sin

(Is this starting to sound like a MasterCard commercial?)

Being in the State of Grace - priceless

With all due respect

Your explanation of 1 John 5:16 - 21is floored. This seriously contradicts Jesus's own teaching in the Sermon on the mount. It is plainly stated that there are no distinctions between sin.

Jam 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Sin is Sin and it leads to death unless we put our trust in Christs sacrifice on the cross completely. As for the explanation in 1 John 5:16-21 your understanding contradicts clear teachings in the bible. I think Matthew Henry explains it best in his commentary which I quote below.

1Jo_5:16. Here we may observe, 1. We ought to pray for others as well as for ourselves; for our brethren of mankind, that they may be enlightened, converted, and saved; for our brethren in the Christian profession, that they may be sincere, that their sins may be pardoned, and that they may be delivered from evils and the chastisements of God, and preserved in Christ Jesus. 2. There is a great distinction in the heinousness and guilt of sin: There is a sin unto death (1Jo_5:16), and there is a sin not unto death, 1Jo_5:17. (1.) There is a sin unto death. All sin, as to the merit and legal sentence of it, is unto death. The wages of sin is death; and cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them, Gal_3:10. But there is a sin unto death in opposition to such sin as is here said not to be unto death. There is therefore, (2.) A sin not unto death. This surely must include all such sin as by divine or human constitution may consist with life; in the human constitution with temporal or corporal life, in the divine constitution with corporal or with spiritual evangelical life. [1.] There are sins which, by human righteous constitution, are not unto death; as divers pieces of injustice, which may be compensated without the death of the delinquent. In opposition to this there are sins which, by righteous constitution, are to death, or to a legal forfeiture of life; such as we call capital crimes. [2.] Then there are sins which, by divine constitution, are unto death; and that either death corporal or spiritual and evangelical. First, Such as are, or may be, to death corporal. Such may the sins be either of gross hypocrites, as Ananias and Sapphira, or, for aught we know, of sincere Christian brethren, as when the apostle says of the offending members of the church of Corinth, For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep, 1Co_11:30. There may be sin unto corporal death among those who may not be condemned with the world. Such sin, I said, is, or may be, to corporal death. The divine penal constitution in the gospel does not positively and peremptorily threaten death to the more visible sins of the members of Christ, but only some gospel-chastisement; for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth, Heb_12:6. There is room left for divine wisdom or goodness, or even gospel severity, to determine how far the chastisement or the scourge shall proceed. And we cannot say but that sometimes it may (in terrorem - for warning to others) proceed even to death. Then, Secondly, There are sins which, by divine constitution, are unto death spiritual and evangelical, that is, are inconsistent with spiritual and evangelical life, with spiritual life in the soul and with an evangelical right to life above. Such are total impenitence and unbelief for the present. Final impenitence and unbelief are infallibly to death eternal, as also a blaspheming of the Spirit of God in the testimony that he has given to Christ and his gospel, and a total apostasy from the light and convictive evidence of the truth of the Christian religion. These are sins involving the guilt of everlasting death. Then comes,

IV. The application of the direction for prayer according to the different sorts of sin thus distinguished. The prayer is supposed to be for life: He shall ask, and he (God) shall give them life. Life is to be asked of God. He is the God of life; he gives it when and to whom he pleases, and takes it away either by his constitution or providence, or both, as he thinks meet. In the case of a brother's sin, which is not (in the manner already mentioned) unto death, we may in faith and hope pray for him; and particularly for the life of soul and body. But, in case of the sin unto death in the forementioned ways, we have no allowance to pray. Perhaps the apostle's expression, I do not say, He shall pray for it, may intend no more than,

[serotta]

I do not agree that all sin is equal, but I do agree that even the slightest sin is enough to keep us from God were it not for the saving grace of Christ. That is a big distinction, but I don't know that it is that important. To put it another way, all sin is not created equal, but we as Christians should not concern ourselves with trying to quantify either our sins or our accomplishments.

I am currently reading a book by John Armstrong titled "Catholic Mystery". What I have gotten from it so far is that where we deviated from Christ's example is when we started trying to quantify our Christianity in order to measure our assurance of salvation. People wanted an answer from their local priest to the question "How can I be sure that I'm saved?", so whether well-intentioned or not (some certainly not), priests, bishops and theologians attempted to quantify salvation.

Faith. I believe that Hebrews 11 gives us the answer.

[Shane]

What I am trying to say here is that all sin leads to death ultimately. So to say that there is Mortal sin (leads to death) and Venial sin (does not lead to death) is unbiblical and based on a faulty understanding of the scripture used as support.

[IreneM]

so there is a big differnce between what catholics believe and what protestants believe on this issue as well.

Ok how about prayers

we pray to God catholics pray to others mostly dead people

We are told by Paul that we can go boldly befor the throne of God

Heb 4:16

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

we are commanded in the old testament not to talk to the dead I would assume that means praying to them as well..

even king saul was punished for visting a witch and calling up a dead person

so how do who do you fell it is right to pray to the dead instead of to the Lord directly

In Christ

IreneM

[RGR]

Katholish:

Some years ago, I heard a big name Protestant minister (won't mention who) say that Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary and the Holy Spirit had "relations" with one another. I'm not sure where this idea came from, but #1 I would find it hard to digest that the RCC teaches this given they believe Mary was a virgin and remained that way-can you expound upon what or where this idea originated? Thanks.

[Katholish]

first question 

ok so  if sin removes  (if we repent )  not good at explaing some times

anyway  so if it removes  HE forgives and forgets  so why the need for pergatory if forgiven forgtten  no more need to suffer for them after death 

I think that the answer can be found in the quote from Hebrews that I presented:

Hebrews 12:

5 And you have forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him.

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct?

8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons.

9 Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live?

10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.

11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

12 Wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees:

13 And make straight steps with your feet: that no one, halting, may go out of the way; but rather be healed.

The point is the Purgatory is not a punishment for its own sake though, but is a necessary refinement as gold is refined in the fire. As had been said by another poster here, nothing impure can entire Heaven, even one little small sin cannot come with us there, but if we die still with that small sin (yet not with any mortal sin) we are at one time saved, yet still need purifying.

True love desires the perfection of the beloved. Just so God desires us to be as perfect and free of sin before we may enter Heaven.

I had used Moses as an example before, of how true forgiveness, even complete eternal forgiveness, does not necessarily mean that there are not some small "punishments" due for those sins though.

I believe that if a child dies before the age of accountabilty they are in heaven I think what that age is depends on the child some know right from wrong and the consiquenses early some do not

if not baptised the Lord does not hold them accountable for that they must know what the baptisem is and understand it before they can be accountable for it

in my opinion

The bible does say repent and be baptised so for me that is the issue I guess.

a biaby can not repent does not even know what that means so the baptism means nothing if they do not understand it ...... am i makeing sense here???

I asked the question, because it is partly our differences here that lead you to think the baptism of infants so odd. Having Original Sin though prevents one from entering Heaven, and even infants who have not yet attained the use of reason still have Original Sin from Adam. It is not something that they are reasponsible for, but is a true condition that they start out in. Original Sin must be removed for even an infant to enter Heaven.

With a mainstream Protestant belief that having Faith alone can free one of Original Sin, technically all infants who die before the age of reason would go to Hell, or at least not automatically go to Heaven.

We baptize our infants to free them from Original Sin, so that from the very beginning, they might be brought up in the grace of God and in possession of the theological virtues.

Now granted that the Church does not teach that infants who die without sacramental Baptism cannot go to Heaven, but what does happen to them is a speculative matter. They might go to a place of perfect natural happiness known as the Limbo of Infants, or they might be given use of their reason at a certain time (in which case a concept called Baptism of Desire might come into play), but from the information that we have from Divine Revelation including the Scriptures does not lead one to hope that they are all automatically taken to Heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that all we can do is leave them in the merciful hands of God. (though that does not imply universal salvation)

Edited March 3, 2005 by Katholish