more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[angels4u]

On 10/26/2016 at 0:24 PM, enoob57 said:

How can I be sure the error of Calvinism 'in saying only the elect' is found in the initial intent of the heart of God:

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

to understand the significance of this 'prepared for the devil and his angels' is to go here

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

As this us-ward brings into all mankind because this is here

Romans 1:20 (KJV)

[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The logical progression of thought goes as this
The hell was created for devil and his angels and God's desire is that no one else of Adams offspring even those who have never seen or heard of the Scripture... but because of His Creative Word, we were born into, and The Written Word, explaining in detail,- All men are held into account for these things... and are commanded to seek Him

Isaiah 55:6 (KJV)

[6] Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

[7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Clearly then election is not founded upon salvation but sealing unto sanctification... For The Lord knew before the foundations of creation began that Lucifer, not yet created, would in fact deceive all and turn all the children of Adam from the truth

Matthew 24:24 (KJV)

[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

but the witness of The Creative Word and The Written Word that God 'IS' and then realization the total of inability of ineptness to come to Him but to call out of the unworthy to be made able to do so... it was self centered to be saved but when The Lord entered as He promised we became children of God that was freed from that focused existence of self and are set upon God to give all that we have become back to God's use for God's glory making our purpose complete in Him...

Love, Steven

 

Hi Steven,

Here we go again, this topic is never ending

Agree so much brother that it is by faith that we are saved and not by anything we could add to it and because God is true to His Word,He wants all people to come to Him and to understand His Salvation plan, it's free and for everybody who comes, so if a few people would be elected ,then it's not a free choice anymore.

God just happened to know which choice we would be making...if I was by-election then why go out to preach the gospel,right brother?

Amen, Jesus set me free!!

 

[angels4u]

On 10/26/2016 at 8:44 AM, Jaydog1976 said:

For a very long time I held to the Calvinistic viewpoints. I even defended them pretty strongly. I know all the verses that actually support both viewpoints. 

I used to attend a Baptist Church that was staunch Calvinistic. I mean they even went to the point of saying Jesus was Calvinistic. Yikes! Needless to say we aren't in that church anymore even though my wife and I have a very deep respect for the former pastor and his love for the Lord.

I know several posters have said that there is no scriptural teaching for either side. I beg to differ in that yes there is. It's called interpretation of scripture. We all, interpret scripture differently.

I know good godly men and women that have held to one or the other viewpoints. This topic is a very controversial one and will always be debated.

What I have come to the believe is that faith comes by hearing and that is by hearing through the word of God. We are saved because yes we must make the decision but we have to hear that call through the Holy Spirit working in our lives. How this works I have no clue nor do I want to venture into trying to understand God in an area that I won't be able to. Where we go wrong is that we try to understand God's logic through our own minds. We know that God knows who will be saved and who will not. But we also know that a person has to make a choice. So how do we reconcile these two things: free will to choose and God's sovereignty and knowing all things. The best answer: we can't. 

God isn't in our box of reasoning and is way above our thoughts and ways. He isn't fair, He is just, righteous and holy and makes His decisions based upon who He is not based upon what you and I think is fair or just. He makes the salvation message free to all but knows that few will accept that message. This is were faith must take over. I have faith that God has everything in control, He knows all things so I don't have to and that I need to be obedient to him because He asks me to even if I don't know all the reasons. I'm commanded to go and preach the gospel.

 What Calvinism and Arminianism do is that both interpretations try to throw a very human thought process into understanding how God operates. We can't do that or our interpretation of scripture becomes very skewed and borderline heretical. 

I for one have taken God's word at face value on this one now. I'm not Calvinistic or arminianistic. I am a Christian who is saved by grace and am commanded to tell others the good news while living in obedience to the God who saved me. And I love Him  because He loved me first. Not the other way around. 

 

 

Hi Jay,

I'm like you you with this , I might have believed in Calvinists before I realized what it meant,but after realizing in my  personal  life who Jesus is and what He did for me , it is by reading the Word of God that I realized that the gospel and salvation is for everybody,for whosoever comes, God knew from before the foundation of the earth which choice we will be making and it wouldn't be salvation for all if it's by election.

Why would God wants us to pray if He already decided who was going to be His child and who not?

 

You said You'd come and share all my sorrows,
You said You'd be there for all my tomorrows;
I came so close to sending You away,
But just like You promised You came there to stay;
I just had to pray!

And Jesus said, "Come to the water, stand by My side,
I know you are thirsty, you won't be denied;
I felt ev'ry teardrop when in darkness you cried,
And I strove to remind you that for those tears I died."

Your goodness so great I can't understand,
And, dear Lord, I know that all this was planned;
I know You're here now, and always will be,
Your love loosed my chains and in You I'm free;
But Jesus, why me?

And Jesus said, "Come to the water, stand by My side,
I know you are thirsty, you won't be denied;
I felt ev'ry teardrop when in darkness you cried,
And I strove to remind you that for those tears I died."

Jesus, I give You my heart and my soul,
I know that without God I'd never be whole;
Savior, You opened all the right doors,
And I thank You and praise You from earth's humble shores;
Take me, I'm Yours.

And Jesus said, "Come to the water, stand by My side,
I know you are thirsty, you won't be denied;
I felt ev'ry teardrop when in darkness you cried,
And I strove to remind you that for those tears I died."


 
 

 

 

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Hi Steven,

Here we go again, this topic is never ending

Agree so much brother that it is by faith that we are saved and not by anything we could add to it and because God is true to His Word,He wants all people to come to Him and to understand His Salvation plan, it's free and for everybody who comes, so if a few people would be elected ,then it's not a free choice anymore.

God just happened to know which choice we would be making...if I was by-election then why go out to preach the gospel,right brother?

Amen, Jesus set me free!!

 

I understand the desire to know the mechanics of the Salvation process (it's a man thing  )... but am firmly convinced it is with foreknowledge undefined by God in His Word... thus we are to wait here, at this undefined point, till God does define this to us! Two undeniable facts within the reasoning 1. God is Sovereign  2. Human responsibility and we are told to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all mankind... I proclaim to all with a pure heart that whosoever will may come and receive from God a new heart worth keeping by God through regeneration!  Love, Steven 

[angels4u]

49 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I understand the desire to know the mechanics of the Salvation process (it's a man thing  )... but am firmly convinced it is with foreknowledge undefined by God in His Word... thus we are to wait here, at this undefined point, till God does define this to us! Two undeniable facts within the reasoning 1. God is Sovereign  2. Human responsibility and we are told to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all mankind... I proclaim to all with a pure heart that whosoever will may come and receive from God a new heart worth keeping by God through regeneration!  Love, Steven 

 

Amen to all you said!!!!!

The foreknowledge of that God knows who  will give their life to Him.

[thilipsis]

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 10:57 PM, angels4u said:

 

I don't want to take anything away from Bobeep thread but I love to go a little deeper of what it really stands for and why you think you are Arminian or why you think you are Calvinist.

For me it's sort of a labeling because I go by what the Bible tells me and not really by what people think I should or should not believe.

I believe many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong.

I try to figure myself out but I don't think I really know what I am,I look at the 5 points and believe all of them,does this make me a Calvinist?

I also believe in a free will:

By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message.

God knows already who will reject or accept Him

.Does this make me Armenian?

Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/do-arminians-preach-a-sufficient-gospel

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/watershed-differences-between-calvinists-and-arminians

I will have to study this more tomorrow ,it's too late know and it's time to shut the computer off !!

Goodnight~~

 

Lets start with total depravity. The parable of the Sower in Luke 8 tells us how salvation works, you hear the word of God (v.11), it might be snatched away because of unbelief. (v.12) falls away when their faith is tested(v. 13) or the weeds of worldly care and the decietfulness of riches chokes out the seed before it matures. Then of course the soil that produces a crop. (v.15)

You know what the biggest difference is between the soils? The fourth one was actually cleared, plowed, and weeded. So the question becomes who is doing the farming because I've never heard of a field plowing itself. 

Ok, total depravity, Catholics believed that the image of God was damaged in the fall but Calvinists insisted it was utterly ruined. The Arminians would come along and say it's damaged horribly but not beyond repair, repentance as an act of free will helped to relieve the fallen condition.

Here is my problem and why I'm Calvinist. Take a look at Romans chapters 1, 2, and 3 up to about verse 21, If you think Paul is talking about those sinner back then or over their your wrong. He is talking about that miserable, wretched sinner in you. Dead to sin alive to God (Rom. ch 6), death of the old nature, birth of the New nature (Eph ch 2). Do note I'm picking whole chapters because this is discussed at considerably length both in the New Testament and often in the Old Testament. If you don't realize that your the fool in Proverbs you missed the whole point. Why do you think Solomon starts off with emphasising the fear of the Lord is the key to knowledge and wisdom? Because your not such a bad guy or because sin has train wrecked you?

Jesus told his Apostles get up and follow me and they did, but why? Later he says Father they were your and you gave them to me. The light of revelation reaches everyone but not everyone receives it (Rom. 1:18-20; John 1:1-5)

The first step to conversion is repentance is conviction over sin, that's how the field gets cleared, plowed and weeded. I have known so many Christians that can't seem to realize they are sinners. Calvinism doesn't let your vanity slip through and wrap itself around your ego. The Gospel is clear, you are helpless with regards to sin and you don't achieve repentance, you receive it like every other aspect of your salvation.

[StanJ]

2 hours ago, thilipsis said:

The first step to conversion is repentance is conviction over sin, that's how the field gets cleared, plowed and weeded. I have known so many Christians that can't seem to realize they are sinners. Calvinism doesn't let your vanity slip through and wrap itself around your ego. The Gospel is clear, you are helpless with regards to sin and you don't achieve repentance, you receive it like every other aspect of your salvation.

That is not what John 3:16-21, 6:44 & 20:31 teaches. God doesn't force anybody.

Redemption is for 'whosoever' will accept it!

[thilipsis]

1 hour ago, StanJ said:

That is not what John 3:16-21, 6:44 & 20:31 teaches. God doesn't force anybody.

Redemption is for 'whosoever' will accept it!

So God didn't force you to repent? You don't have a sin nature that rebels against God at every turn? All Christian theology accepts the sin nature as the first point of contact with sinful humans and God's holy, righteous nature. That said, your right, I have to accept the indictment that I am a sinner and the revelation that God is holy, righteous and good. Jesus is telling us that we must be born again and the New Testament is clear its by faith. The key to what you said there is whosoever, 'will', that is the enigmatic variable.  We do not achieve repentance, anymore then we merit salvation. We receive repentance along with the divine nature that is what being born again is all about.

Edited November 27, 2016 by thilipsis

[StanJ]

13 hours ago, thilipsis said:

So God didn't force you to repent? 

No he did not.

13 hours ago, thilipsis said:

 You don't have a sin nature that rebels against God at every turn? 

Not anymore, but if you're asking was I like Paul  described himself in Romans 7, the answer is yes.

13 hours ago, thilipsis said:

All Christian theology accepts the sin nature as the first point of contact with sinful humans and God's holy, righteous nature. 

I think you'll find if you actually read all of Christian theology, that this is not a factual statement.  Off the top of my head I would say Adam and Enoch would refute your assertion here, along with John the Baptist.  We don't inherit a sin nature, we have a carnal nature which needs to be born again. 

13 hours ago, thilipsis said:

Jesus is telling us that we must be born again and the New Testament is clear its by faith. The key to what you said there is whosoever, 'will', that is the enigmatic variable.  We do not achieve repentance, anymore then we merit salvation. We receive repentance along with the divine nature that is what being born again is all about.

There is nothing enigmatic about it and the fact that God tells us to repent means that we are capable of doing so. Why would Peter make the declaration he did in Acts 2:38  if not 'every one' of those people were capable of doing so?  Apparently you have adopted scripture to fit your predispositional bias rather than read scripture to form your doctrinal position which is the proper way to learn God's word as Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15. The former way is called eisegesis, and the latter way is called exegesis. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by StanJ

[thilipsis]

11 hours ago, StanJ said:

I think you'll find if you actually read all of Christian theology, that this is not a factual statement.  Off the top of my head I would say Adam and Enoch would refute your assertion here, along with John the Baptist.  We don't inherit a sin nature, we have a carnal nature which needs to be born again. 

 You had me till you rejected original sin:

Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).

There is no one righteous, not even one;there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. (Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20)

The New Testament word for repentance isn't a change of behavior, that's the effect. It's a change of attitude at the 'seat of moral reflection':

Repent, Repentance: lit., "to perceive afterwards". meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection".    (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words Strong's #G3340)

This requires a change of the inner man, the New Testament is crystal clear on this point. The sinner can repent of nothing apart from an imputation of the divine nature:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,  in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient… For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:1-2, 8-10)

Quote

There is nothing enigmatic about it and the fact that God tells us to repent means that we are capable of doing so. Why would Peter make the declaration he did in Acts 2:38  if not 'every one' of those people you're capable of doing so?  Apparently you have adopted scripture to fit your predispositional bias rather than read scripture to form your doctrinal position which is the proper way to learn God's word as Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 2:15. The former way is called eisegesis, and the latter way is called exegesis. 

Either way this comes down to justification by grace through faith, indeed there is a choice to receive repentance but there is no part of salvation that is our own work. It is not by the force of human will that we repent but by submitting to the will of God. We do that by grace through faith. 

Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of themyet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)

A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could teach a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked. We will receive that full recompense of righteousness and be glorified forever based on Christ's merit.

That's why total depravity is essential, every part of salvation is a gift of grace. You carnal behavior is your essential nature, it cannot be repaired it must be replaced. Indeed before Christ we are the guy in Romans 7 and we are afterwards. That's why Romans 6 tells us we must be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness because after conversion we have a new nature born of incorruptible seed. Then having received the new nature and the promised Holy Spirit we can walk after the spirit and are the children of God as we see in Romans 8.

The book of Romans tells us that God's invisible attributes and eternal nature have been clearly seen but we exchanged the truth of God for a lie (Rom 1:21,22). As a result the Law of Moses and the law of our own conscience bears witness against us, sometimes accusing, sometimes defending (Rom 2:15). We all sinned but now the righteousness of God has been revealed to be by faith through Christ (Rom 3:21). Abraham became the father of many nations by faith and the supernatural work of God (Rom 4:17). Through one man sin entered the world and through one man righteousness was revealed (Rom 5:12). It looks something like this:

1. Exchanging the truth of God for a lie, the creature for the Creator.
2. Both the Law and our conscience make our sin evident and obvious.
3. All sinned, but now the righteousness of God is revealed in Christ.
4. Abraham's lineage produced by a promise and a miracle through faith.
5. Through one man sin entered the world and death through sin.
6. Just as Christ was raised from the dead we walk in newness of life.
7. The law could not save but instead empowered sin to convict.
8. Freed from the law of sin and death (Adamic nature) we're saved

The Scriptures offer an explanation for man's fallen nature, how we inherited it exactly is not important but when Adam and Eve sinned we did not fast.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by thilipsis

[Willa]

These are the 5 articles of remonstrance by Arminius.   I pretty much agree with them as stated here.

Article I — That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospelin John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article II — That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before they can teach it with the full persuasion of their minds.[1]